Trite sayings that people think are profound.

windsock · 12-01-2018, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland

Just because life has no meaning doesn't meant that I can't enjoy it or expect positive things to happen.

Then we agree! I will say for a third time that nihilism is not defeatism because nihilists don't turn their pessimism into unproductivity. All I was saying is that the two have roots in pessimism. They differ in how much they let their pessimism sway their life.

windsock · 12-01-2018, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

What’s pessimistic about it? It doesn’t mean your life doesn’t have meaning to you.

I think pessimism can be concentrated in different areas than the personal. If you believe life overall doesn't have meaning, I find that to be a pessimistic outlook. That doesn't mean that pessimism is destructive or defeating, especially in a personal sense. Someone can be pessimistic and still hold meaning in their own life, which sounds a lot like nihilism to me.

windsock · 12-01-2018, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

I don't think existential nihilism is inherently pessimistic or optimistic more so it is obvious

That sort of relates back to what I believe Jans said a page or so ago. It makes sense that a nihilist would see their view as objective fact, but to me it's all a matter of perspective.

**Frownland** · 12-01-2018, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by windsock

I think pessimism can be concentrated in different areas than the personal. If you believe life overall doesn't have meaning, I find that to be a pessimistic outlook. That doesn't mean that pessimism is destructive or defeating, especially in a personal sense. Someone can be pessimistic and still hold meaning in their own life, which sounds a lot like nihilism to me.

It looks like you have a pessimistic view of nihilism.

windsock · 12-01-2018, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland

It looks like you have a pessimistic view of nihilism.

I dunno, I've characterized nihilism as productive numerous times now so I don't think I'm being that half-empty about it. But it's not a philosophy of sunshine and rainbows after all so I'm not gonna treat it as such.

**Frownland** · 12-01-2018, 12:38 PM

Productivity and value are the only things that can make life positive? Alrighty then, Mr. Capitalist.

windsock · 12-01-2018, 12:41 PM

They don't call me Mr. Moneybags for nothing. Captain of industry or robber baron? You decide.

**Janszoon** · 12-01-2018, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by windsock

I think pessimism can be concentrated in different areas than the personal. If you believe life overall doesn't have meaning, I find that to be a pessimistic outlook. That doesn't mean pessimism is destructive or defeating, especially in a personal sense. Someone can be pessimistic and still hold meaning in their life, i.e. nihilism.

Why do you find it to be pessimistic though?

The Batlord · 12-01-2018, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by windsock

"...existential nihilism, which argues that life is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value."

I fail to see how this isn't pessimistic. And as long as we're regurgitating Wikipedia:

It's not pessimistic it's completely neutral. Meaning is a human psychological invention that has no value that we don't subjectively give it. You literally can't argue against that. Even if you're coming from a religious point of view you'd have to presuppose that a deity could create objective meaning even though that meaning would also be a subjective invention. It's not pessimism vs. optimism. It's common sense vs. stupidity.

windsock · 12-01-2018, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dharma & Greg

It's not pessimistic it's completely neutral. Meaning is a human psychological invention that has no value that we don't subjectively give it. You literally can't argue against that. Even if you're coming from a religious point of view you'd have to presuppose that a deity could create objective meaning even though that meaning would also be a subjective invention. It's not pessimism vs. optimism. It's common sense vs. stupidity.

I would agree that meaning is a psychological construct, but such a thing can be said for most everything to do with the human condition. Meaning, similar to existence itself, isn't a tangible thing that can be proven or disproven- instead it's relegated to the realm of perspective. It lies within the same ideological realm as the existence of a deity. The reason religion has existed for so long is because you can't, without a shadow of a doubt, prove that there is no god. It relies on perspective. I don't really believe in a higher "meaning" or metaphysical endgame for the human race, but I still hold existence as meaningful in the vein that the experience it a good thing that should be cherished. To see existence as unmeaningful is also a matter of perspective, but one I believe to be an extreme form of pessimism and skepticism, aka nihilism.

As for the continued debate on the pessimism of nihilism, I think the IEP gives a good summary for nihilism:

Quote:

Nihilism is the belief that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated. It is often associated with extreme pessimism and a radical skepticism that condemns existence. A true nihilist would believe in nothing, have no loyalties, and no purpose other than, perhaps, an impulse to destroy. While few philosophers would claim to be nihilists, nihilism is most often associated with Friedrich Nietzsche who argued that its corrosive effects would eventually destroy all moral, religious, and metaphysical convictions and precipitate the greatest crisis in human history. In the 20th century, nihilistic themes--epistemological failure, value destruction, and cosmic purposelessness--have preoccupied artists, social critics, and philosophers. Mid-century, for example, the existentialists helped popularize tenets of nihilism in their attempts to blunt its destructive potential. By the end of the century, existential despair as a response to nihilism gave way to an attitude of indifference, often associated with antifoundationalism.

I find condemnation of existence itself to be a pessimistic philosophy. Honestly though I'm beginning to entrench myself waayy to much into the realm of existential philosophy and I think it's beginning to be a bit too much for a Saturday afternoon.

12-01-2018, 12:38 PM	#66 (permalink)
Frownland SOPHIE FOREVER Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: East of the Southern North American West Posts: 35,541	Productivity and value are the only things that can make life positive? Alrighty then, Mr. Capitalist. __________________ Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth. d e a f b o x