Trite sayings that people think are profound.

windsock · 12-01-2018, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

What’s pessimistic about it? It doesn’t mean your life doesn’t have meaning to you.

I think pessimism can be concentrated in different areas than the personal. If you believe life overall doesn't have meaning, I find that to be a pessimistic outlook. That doesn't mean that pessimism is destructive or defeating, especially in a personal sense. Someone can be pessimistic and still hold meaning in their own life, which sounds a lot like nihilism to me.

The Batlord · 12-01-2018, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by windsock

"...existential nihilism, which argues that life is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value."

I fail to see how this isn't pessimistic. And as long as we're regurgitating Wikipedia:

It's not pessimistic it's completely neutral. Meaning is a human psychological invention that has no value that we don't subjectively give it. You literally can't argue against that. Even if you're coming from a religious point of view you'd have to presuppose that a deity could create objective meaning even though that meaning would also be a subjective invention. It's not pessimism vs. optimism. It's common sense vs. stupidity.

windsock · 12-01-2018, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dharma & Greg

It's not pessimistic it's completely neutral. Meaning is a human psychological invention that has no value that we don't subjectively give it. You literally can't argue against that. Even if you're coming from a religious point of view you'd have to presuppose that a deity could create objective meaning even though that meaning would also be a subjective invention. It's not pessimism vs. optimism. It's common sense vs. stupidity.

I would agree that meaning is a psychological construct, but such a thing can be said for most everything to do with the human condition. Meaning, similar to existence itself, isn't a tangible thing that can be proven or disproven- instead it's relegated to the realm of perspective. It lies within the same ideological realm as the existence of a deity. The reason religion has existed for so long is because you can't, without a shadow of a doubt, prove that there is no god. It relies on perspective. I don't really believe in a higher "meaning" or metaphysical endgame for the human race, but I still hold existence as meaningful in the vein that the experience it a good thing that should be cherished. To see existence as unmeaningful is also a matter of perspective, but one I believe to be an extreme form of pessimism and skepticism, aka nihilism.

As for the continued debate on the pessimism of nihilism, I think the IEP gives a good summary for nihilism:

Quote:

Nihilism is the belief that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated. It is often associated with extreme pessimism and a radical skepticism that condemns existence. A true nihilist would believe in nothing, have no loyalties, and no purpose other than, perhaps, an impulse to destroy. While few philosophers would claim to be nihilists, nihilism is most often associated with Friedrich Nietzsche who argued that its corrosive effects would eventually destroy all moral, religious, and metaphysical convictions and precipitate the greatest crisis in human history. In the 20th century, nihilistic themes--epistemological failure, value destruction, and cosmic purposelessness--have preoccupied artists, social critics, and philosophers. Mid-century, for example, the existentialists helped popularize tenets of nihilism in their attempts to blunt its destructive potential. By the end of the century, existential despair as a response to nihilism gave way to an attitude of indifference, often associated with antifoundationalism.

I find condemnation of existence itself to be a pessimistic philosophy. Honestly though I'm beginning to entrench myself waayy to much into the realm of existential philosophy and I think it's beginning to be a bit too much for a Saturday afternoon.

The Batlord · 12-01-2018, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Nihilism (/ˈnaɪ(h)ɪlɪzəm, ˈniː-/; from Latin nihil, meaning 'nothing') is the philosophical viewpoint that suggests the denial or lack of belief towards the reputedly meaningful aspects of life. Most commonly, nihilism is presented in the form of existential nihilism, which argues that life is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value.[1] Moral nihilists assert that there is no inherent morality, and that accepted moral values are abstractly contrived. Nihilism may also take epistemological, ontological, or metaphysical forms, meaning respectively that, in some aspect, knowledge is not possible, or reality does not actually exist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism

windsock · 12-01-2018, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

I don't think existential nihilism is inherently pessimistic or optimistic more so it is obvious

That sort of relates back to what I believe Jans said a page or so ago. It makes sense that a nihilist would see their view as objective fact, but to me it's all a matter of perspective.

**Frownland** · 12-01-2018, 11:38 AM

Productivity and value are the only things that can make life positive? Alrighty then, Mr. Capitalist.

windsock · 12-01-2018, 11:41 AM

They don't call me Mr. Moneybags for nothing. Captain of industry or robber baron? You decide.

Lucem Ferre · 12-01-2018, 06:15 PM

So basically you ARE a nihilist that doesn't refer to himself as a nihilist based on a stereotypical misunderstanding of nihilism.

You admit life has no objective higher meaning, but life still has meaning to you that you still recognize as subjective. That doesn't make you less of a nihilist. That's how many nihilists are.

It's not rooted in pessimism because you're assuming that life having meaning is a positive when many many people relish in the idea of life having no inherent meaning.

I personally dislike the term 'existential nihilism' because nihilism in it's self is existential. Tacking the 'existential' at the beginning is a self indulgent appeal to superficial ideas of intelligence.

**Janszoon** · 12-01-2018, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucem Ferre

So basically you ARE a nihilist that doesn't refer to himself as a nihilist based on a stereotypical misunderstanding of nihilism.

You admit life has no objective higher meaning, but life still has meaning to you that you still recognize as subjective. That doesn't make you less of a nihilist. That's how many nihilists are.

It's not rooted in pessimism because you're assuming that life having meaning is a positive when many many people relish in the idea of life having no inherent meaning.

I personally dislike the term 'existential nihilism' because nihilism in it's self is existential. Tacking the 'existential' at the beginning is a self indulgent appeal to superficial ideas of intelligence.

Also, there’s no reason to think that life having meaning is a positive thing. What if the meaning of life is hardship and pain?

windsock · 12-01-2018, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucem Ferre

So basically you ARE a nihilist that doesn't refer to himself as a nihilist based on a stereotypical misunderstanding of nihilism.

You admit life has no objective higher meaning, but life still has meaning to you that you still recognize as subjective. That doesn't make you less of a nihilist. That's how many nihilists are.

I don't think I'm going to be transported to a magical haven in the sky when I die, but that doesn't mean I condemn existence. I can hold meaning in my life in itself without recognizing there's some higher power waiting for me. The two aren't mutually exclusive. That being said I've never said that I'm not nihilistic, in fact I've espoused nihilist values in the past, most of which are due to my pessimistic personality. I guess if you want to label me as something cause everyone seems to love labels, you could call me an "optimistic nihilist" because I believe life has no objective higher meaning but I don't reject existence within itself and instead view the experience with optimism. I personally wouldn't call myself that cause it sounds dumb.

Quote:

It's not rooted in pessimism because you're assuming that life having meaning is a positive when many many people relish in the idea of life having no inherent meaning.

Ehh, I don't know. That's find that reasoning shaky. If we're talking general societal belief and ideology, the idea that life has no meaning is pretty pessimistic. But like I've said what makes nihilists different from defeatists is what they do with their pessimistic belief. Holding pessimistic values and/or factoring those views into your nihilism doesn't make you a grinch, nor would I say it fundamentally does so. I think there's a kind of spectrum that comes to nihilism because nihilists vary on how pessimistically nihilist they are. This goes back to the IEP article, which states that a "true" nihilist would "would believe in nothing, have no loyalties, and no purpose other than, perhaps, an impulse to destroy." Neither you nor I are full on nihilists but that doesn't make nihilism at it's core not pessimistic.

Quote:

I personally dislike the term 'existential nihilism' because nihilism in it's self is existential. Tacking the 'existential' at the beginning is a self indulgent appeal to superficial ideas of intelligence.

I believe the term exists to distinguish from 'moral nihilism' which I'm fairly certain is a branch separate from existentialism. I agree though that existential nihilism as a term is generally redundant.

12-01-2018, 11:38 AM	#6 (permalink)
Frownland SOPHIE FOREVER Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: East of the Southern North American West Posts: 35,541	Productivity and value are the only things that can make life positive? Alrighty then, Mr. Capitalist. __________________ Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth. d e a f b o x