Trite sayings that people think are profound.

grindy · 12-03-2018, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by windsock

I'm still not sure that traditional, behavioral pessimism is as linked to philosophical pessimism as you think. They certainly share most concepts (they're both pessimism, after all), and the argument that philo pessimism is just glass-half-empty on a grand scale could probably be debated. I haven't read enough about the two to understand the more specific nuances.

And I agree that a true pessimist probably couldn't exist, and neither could a true optimist. Similarly, I don't think a "true" nihilist could exist either because they'd either being a husk of a person or a husk that's hellbent on destroying things that it perceives to be meaningless, i.e. everything. Perhaps such an individual has existed in the past but I haven't heard of 'em.

Why would a true nihilist want to destroy stuff?

Lisnaholic · 12-03-2018, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MicShazam

Existentialism is the belief that through a combination of awareness, free will, and personal responsibility, one can construct their own meaning within a world that intrinsically has none of its own.

^ That seems like a pretty good definition MicShazam, though I would have added a bit about how an existentialist should never forget that any constructed meaning is illusory, that their focus should be on the meaninglessness.

Either way, I'm very puzzled by US cable news reporters who now talk about how the Russia investigation is "an existential threat" to Trump's presidency. Has anyone else noticed that? Surely they should be saying, "It's a threat to the existence of the Trump presidency", which is different, right? Aren't they misusing the word "existential"?

**Frownland** · 12-03-2018, 08:53 AM

There's existential as relating to existence, then there's existential as relating to existentialism. Existential threat uses the former form of the word.

That said, cable news is about as good of a news source as TMZ these days.

Lisnaholic · 12-03-2018, 09:20 AM

I suppose you're right on both counts: the word and the quality of news. Do we have a smiley for "grudgingly accepts the inevitable truth" ?

windsock · 12-03-2018, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grindy

Why would a true nihilist want to destroy stuff?

It's not a guarantee, but one could assume that the pointlessness of existence would become so pervasive within the nihilist's psyche that that perceived pointlessness would flip into an urge to remove all things meaningless. That, or they would perceive their actions as inconsequential and therefore the destruction of life similarly so. That's all hypothetical though and I think it's more safe to say a "true nihilist" would simply be an immobile husk as no actions other than passive ones would be ultimately pointless to them.

windsock · 12-03-2018, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland

There's existential as relating to existence, then there's existential as relating to existentialism. Existential threat uses the former form of the word.

That said, cable news is about as good of a news source as TMZ these days.

Very well put in both regards.

**Frownland** · 12-03-2018, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by windsock

It's not a guarantee, but one could assume that the pointlessness of existence would become so pervasive within the nihilist's psyche that that perceived pointlessness would flip into an urge to remove all things meaningless.

That's a silly assumption. Why would they remove all that they find meaningless, as a way to create meaning when they've already recognized life and everything around them as meaningless?

Quote:

That, or they would perceive their actions as inconsequential and therefore the destruction of life similarly so.

That's closer to the mark, but that's not really a logical conclusion of nihilism. It's a neutral philosophy, so you can draw whatever conclusions from it that you will.

Quote:

That's all hypothetical though and I think it's more safe to say a "true nihilist" would simply be an immobile husk as no actions other than passive ones would be ultimately pointless to them.

You're equating nihilism with defeatism again. The "true nihilist" is simply someone who recognizes the meaninglessness of the universe. There's no moral code attached to it in the same way that there isn't an inherent moral code attached to climate science. It's a base observation, where you take it is on you.

grindy · 12-03-2018, 02:58 PM

^.

windsock · 12-03-2018, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland

That's a silly assumption. Why would they remove all that they find meaningless, as a way to create meaning when they've already recognized life and everything around them as meaningless?

I find it silly as well, thus why I don't agree with it. I was mostly playing devil's advocate.

Quote:

You're equating nihilism with defeatism again. The "true nihilist" is simply someone who recognizes the meaninglessness of the universe. There's no moral code attached to it in the same way that there isn't an inherent moral code attached to climate science. It's a base observation, where you take it is on you.

Your description of nihilism as a "base observation" ties into what I've been saying this whole time: nihilism is on a philosophically pessimistic spectrum. The degree to which you observe meaninglessness dictates what kind of nihilist you are, and I would argue that a "true nihilist" could easily devolve into a defeatist, I'll never say they're the same thing. I've made clear that most nihilists still make an effort to progress as an individual for their own reasons, because many of them have recognized the beauty in their own existence despite there being no higher purpose.

**Frownland** · 12-03-2018, 03:43 PM

Nihilism presupposes neither positive nor negative outcomes, though, it simply asserts that the action or the outcome doesn't have any meaning, which is a neutral stance. Philosophical pessimism is more of a means of protection from disappointment than the more or less objective premise of nihilism.

There's overlap in the Venn diagram of nihilists and pessimists but it's far from a circle and the philosophies themselves are even less connected. One could easily exist without the other and to say that the two philosophies are rooted in one another is to confuse the trend for the rule.

12-03-2018, 08:53 AM	#153 (permalink)
Frownland SOPHIE FOREVER Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: East of the Southern North American West Posts: 35,541	There's existential as relating to existence, then there's existential as relating to existentialism. Existential threat uses the former form of the word. That said, cable news is about as good of a news source as TMZ these days. __________________ Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth. d e a f b o x

12-03-2018, 09:20 AM	#154 (permalink)
Lisnaholic ...here to hear... Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: He lives on Love Street Posts: 4,444	I suppose you're right on both counts: the word and the quality of news. Do we have a smiley for "grudgingly accepts the inevitable truth" ? __________________ "Am I enjoying this moment? I know of it and perhaps that is enough." - Sybille Bedford, 1953

12-03-2018, 02:58 PM	#158 (permalink)
grindy . Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: . Posts: 7,201	^. __________________ *A smell of petroleum prevails throughout.*

12-03-2018, 03:43 PM	#160 (permalink)
Frownland SOPHIE FOREVER Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: East of the Southern North American West Posts: 35,541	Nihilism presupposes neither positive nor negative outcomes, though, it simply asserts that the action or the outcome doesn't have any meaning, which is a neutral stance. Philosophical pessimism is more of a means of protection from disappointment than the more or less objective premise of nihilism. There's overlap in the Venn diagram of nihilists and pessimists but it's far from a circle and the philosophies themselves are even less connected. One could easily exist without the other and to say that the two philosophies are rooted in one another is to confuse the trend for the rule. __________________ Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth. d e a f b o x