jibber

Well, I've read in books and other sources that the BL family were alowed to leave, but for all I know it could be false. You made a really good point in saying that Al Queda definitely did has not fallen apart in BL absence. Which brings up another question. How can anyone honestly think it's remotely possible to "rid the world of terrorism"? Think about how widespread it is, and how deeply rooted it is. Waging a war won't even make a dent in solving the problem, if anything, it may make it worse. The more important threat in my mind is the education systems in many islamic countries, namely Saudi Arabia. That's the country they should be paying close attention to, but if you listen to all the press conferences, you'll notice that Iran, Syria, N. Korea etc. are always mentioned as threats, but never Saudi Arabia. It actually scares me to think of how much the situation could escalate if it's left like this much longer.

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That's a very good observation. I think a lot of people dont realize that the Iraq war's main consequence was the spread of anti-westernization. It's become disturbingly more clear that terrorist groups can recruit disgruntled Iraqis who's homes were destroyed and loved ones' lives taken away.
I think they target those specific countries because they have governments that they presume as being potential harborers or supporters of terrorist groups. These terrorists have limited fund sources, and a group such as Al Quada make a lot of their money from donations from various religious clerics. Whenever a government or state offers to directly fund these people, it becomes a problem. a BIG problem. Because that's an easy source for development and weapons. But like I said earlier, it seems really stupid to me that any government would directly help terrorists or support their actions. That's just asking for war, and besides North Korea, none of those countries have the military capacity to withstand an all-out attack.
Saudi Arabia is kinda interesting, because a lot of Middle Eastern terrorist groups consist of Saudis. But their 'government', as far as we know, works hard at fighting terror and does not support them. It's tough to single that country out, because there are active cells and recruitment throughout the world. But there's no doubt that people are watching that region after 9/11.
"Terrorism" in itself is loosely defined by the B*sh adminstration and allied countries. For instance, I don't see how those ridiculous school shooting incidents are not considered acts of terrorism. Sometimes, it almost seems like they've planted this idea to the general public that terrorism must constitute arabic participants, which is obviously obsurd. Like you said, terrorism is impossible to overcome, and since human history, has been in full swing. But, I can agree to some extent with the current agenda to cut off potential "main" sources for funding. However, it doesnt work when we play a spin-the-bottle type approach and invade & conquer vulnerable countries without knowing ALL the facts. But there are the "little" things that can be done over a long period of time, i.e. tightening security, increased communication and intelligence technologies, an effective global anti-terror organization, and tracking all WMDs and making sure they arent in the wrong hands. If you look at the bigger picture, revitalizing third-world countries and eliminating the spread of westernization and ultimately minimizing the cultural differences from both sides of the field. There's a big terror problem within Russia we need to worry about, but I'm not sure how much attention that is receiving in comparison to middle eastern turmoil.

sorry, that was a really long post. dont take sleeping pills, just read this.

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jibber

"Saudi Arabia is kinda interesting, because a lot of Middle Eastern terrorist groups consist of Saudis. But their 'government', as far as we know, works hard at fighting terror and does not support them. It's tough to single that country out, because there are active cells and recruitment throughout the world. But there's no doubt that people are watching that region after 9/11."

The thing is, I'm not sure the government is working all that hard, at all. The royal family is in a very, very unstable position right now, something that a lot of poeple don't seem to be aware of. The country is going through a HUGE population boom, with a huge percentage of their population under 20. The problem is, there's also an extremely high unemployment rate, and a very underdeveloped job market. A lot of the high paying jobs are done by ex-patriats brought into the country from other nations, and most of the lower paying, (paralleling out minimum waged jobs) are taken by immigrants from countries like the philipines. As well, the society puts a huge emphasis on religion, (most of the prominent members in that society are clerics), which prompts a huge number of younger people to study islam in universities. Most of these graduates have grown up in very wealthy families, and expect to continue that lifestyle once they get out on their own. The problem is, a degree in islamic studies doesn't provide for a whole lot of job opportunities, which creates a lot of frustration, and a lot of anger towards the government in seeing all the expats being given high paying jobs by government funded companies. That part only explains the upper class. On top of that, there's a major division of wealth. The oil boom in Saudi Arabia in the 30's created a very unstable economy; there's virtually no middle class (only extremely wealthy and extremely poor), and the entire economy is basically dependant on oil. Add this to the unemployment problem, and you get a lot of angry, frustrated young people, who see their government investing in foreign compainies, bringing in foreign workers and investors, and not doing a thing to help out the lower class. That in itself all sounds pretty scary, but I haven't even mentioned the education system. Most of the universities are run by clerics, and a large majority of them practice, and even more unsettling, teach fundamentalist islam to their students. Imagine a whole generation of poor, frustrated young people growing up with their entire education system run by islamic fundamentalist clerics.

So the government is in an extremely tough spot right now. Cater to the the wants and needs of their citizens, many of whom are very anti-western, very fundamentalist, and they'll jeopardize they're ties with the western world. Risking that could mean risking their entire economy, seeing as how it's entirely dependant on oil exports. On the flip side, continue to work in such close proximity with the western world, and allowing foreign countries such control over the economy and over the businesses, and they'll be dealing with a major crisis with their citizens. So far they've been able to keep it in balance, just barely, but it can't last forever, and I really dread how bad it could be when it does fall apart.

ok, that was long.

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What you've done becomes the judge of what you're going to do -- especially in other people's minds. When you're traveling, you are what you are right there and then. People don't have your past to hold against you. No yesterdays on the road.
William Least Heat Moon, Blue Highways

Your toughest competitor lives in your head. Some days his name is fear, or pain, or gravity. Stomp his ass.

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^ I was not aware of the various Saudi social situations you detailed. All I know is, like you said later, that the royal family and co. have a "close" relationship with the US (I'm assuming it's a political relationship built around oil import) and that the citizens are not exactly pleased with the position. All these things put in perspective is certainly a cause for concern for that region. I've heard reports from US media that the royal family is under a lot of scrutiny from their people and they have been targeted by islamic extremists for some time. I've also heard reports that higher ups within GWB's adminstration are displeased with the efforts (or lack of efforts) to fight terrorism within their country. I've heard some conservatives who feel Saudi is next in the fight against terror, but what I guess my main point was that it wouldn't be tactical or even ethical to wage war, especially considering the royal family has an official stance against terror, even if they may not be working as hard as we'd like them too. I still feel like the main focus should be on the Pakistan and Afghanistan border; which reminds me, that Pakistan is in a similar situation, where the people simply do not support the platform of Musharaff (SP?) and co. It's tough. There's so many problems, so many lives to consider, yet we resort to taking out dirty laundry (Iraq) when we should have done it years ago, when tyranny was at its peak. The bottom line is priorities. We have to take care of imminent dangers first.

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jibber

^ That's exactly my view on it. The problem is there's just so many overlaping problems to deal with, one possible solution to one problem would make another problem much worse, so it's easy to see how trying to come up with a solution has been just mind boggling. Oh right, forgot to mention the whole israel/palestine situation, that alone makes the whole mess about 20 times more complicated.

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What you've done becomes the judge of what you're going to do -- especially in other people's minds. When you're traveling, you are what you are right there and then. People don't have your past to hold against you. No yesterdays on the road.
William Least Heat Moon, Blue Highways

Your toughest competitor lives in your head. Some days his name is fear, or pain, or gravity. Stomp his ass.

HOOKED ON THE WHITE POWDER

Sneer

its too early to read all of this. maybe later.

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dog

bill hicks made a great point about that.

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All_Nite_Dinah

I agree with most the stuff you guys have been saying so i dont have much for input except more on the rediculous idea of a "war on terrorism". No country can invade another country and not expect there to be retaliation. Despite what some people think no country WANTS to be invaded. Not Iraq, not Afghanistan, and surely no North Korea. Being the cynic I am I still agree that the entire premise behind the invasion, occupation, and eventual "elections" is all about the money. What does country X have that we want? How can we aquire this while making our image is still strong. The fact is diplomacy went out the window a looong time ago. Nobody likes to wave a flag and say god bless America because we aid and trade with foreighn countries. They would rather hold there head up high because we bomb them appoint officials and take what we want. How many people were patriotic when the UN sanctions were imposed AND WORKING in Iraq. None, but the second we went in with bombs rather than take them out people began to support us. This goes as far back as the first conflict with Iraq, when we gave them weapons no one seemed to care, but when they invaded Kuwait all the sudden we are schocked? Countries only use weapons for one thing and im pretty sure its not to build jungle gyms. I understand what your saying about the pakistan/Afghanistan border, but I think its a pretty bad situation no matter what. Were obviously not going to solve the problem diplomaticly as that just dosnt seem to be the theme of our times. So what are we going to do, invade Pakistan too? Well then whats going to happen at the Pakistan/Iran and Pakistan/China boarders. Are we going to invade them too? Our resources are strecthed thin enough already we wouldnt stand a chance. Any government is going to suffer from instability when there neighbor is invaded and occupied. Most likely cutting off any trade you have with them and accusing your country as taking part in terrorism simply by trading for the things that you need to live everyday. Will they join you when you accuse them of being terrorist and threaten to invade there country, Hell yes they will. Like its been said already. We really put ourselves into a quaqmire acting as the global authority. We have engaged ourselves in conflicts around the world and become the most hated nation in the world. And on top of it all the only exit startegy in place for this mess is for GW to wait untill he gets out of office so he can blame the mess on his predesessor. Unles of course good ol Jeb gets in, in which case god save us please!


In relation to the original topic. Peace rocks, we should give it a try.

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All_Nite_Dinah

Interesting fact! In the 18 years of my life 1987-2005. The untied states has been in conflicts during at least 11 years! And we wonder why our people have such a hard time understanding peace!

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Sneer

you started that off by stating the obvious. but i do agree with you, politics is all about money. however im pretty sure people wave their flags at the thought of peace rather than for greed. patriotism comes into play at a time of need, surele we all know that. when backs are against the wall the pride steps up a notch and the flags come out. UN sanctions were not a threat- war however was. yes countries use weaponry for destruction but i think as you said previously, this destructions builds a better tomorrow. and i think america gets involved with all the conflicts because they are the only allied country that has the resources to do so. britian, yeah, we aid you. but we have hardly any power over world affairs- something you have in abundance. im with you in saying we should give peace a try. after all, all you need is love.

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