Nine Black Poppies

See, the thing about humanity is that difference--even though it's inevitable--creates and supports inequality.

It's somewhat of an oversimplification to say it this way, but books have been written about this subject and I'm trying to be succinct, so bear with me. With that caveat, the idea that not shaving is "disgusting" is part of a larger institution that creates the idea that a woman's value is based on how much she appeals to men. That is a fundamental inequality and it's played out in an often-subtle pressure that you're not going to understand, no matter what I type--that's the nature of privilege, and men ARE a privileged class, especially when it comes to physical appearance. And like it or not, however enlightened we like to claim we are, we are also products of that larger culture, which is why it's NOT equivalent to a guy having or not having a beard, especially on a level beyond individuals.

To be fair, even I'm not above this cultural idea--I shave my armpits and trim everything else and I do so mostly for aesthetic reasons (it does feel better, but I think that's only because I'm used to it). Likewise, I don't consider this the fault of any particular male--you're used to what you're used to, you find attractive what you find attractive. That's neither here nor there.

But I am troubled by how dismissively people participate in the double standard without being willing to challenge themselves. You said you wouldn't date or have sex with a girl who had body hair--what if the girl of your dreams in every other way has decided not to shave for a while when you meet her? I know that's sort of an overly glib thing to say, but I'm trying to make a point--when you start saying things like "Any girl I'd want would have to ________" unequivocally, that's a foundation for sexism, because you're not the only guy doing that and there's a power imbalance still in play.

I'm sitting here typing this out and thinking "Wait, wait. C'mon, I shave. And my first inclination with another girl is to prefer it. Maybe I'm being a little oversensitive." Yet what causes me to think that? Why am I in a position where I might even feel the need to be sensitive? Just something to think about.

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Like carnivores to carnal pleasures, so were we to desperate measures...

Dirty

the idea that not shaving is "disgusting" is part of a larger institution that creates the idea that a woman's value is based on how much she appeals to men.

I see where you are coming from but I don't think that's all of it. To me it's much more simple than you are making it sound sometimes. Women not shaving is disgusting to a lot of guys. Like the example earlier, if there are identical twins and one is hairy and ones shaved, every guy I know is gonna choose the shaved one. I know many girls who LIKE a hairy guy (not Robin Williams-esque) because they see them as manly and mascline.

I guess what I am saying is that it isn't some mega tragedy that woman *have* to shave or are expected to. It's not a bad thing to me. It's just that most men like shaved women and most women don't really care if their man is shaved or not.

Nine Black Poppies

Shaving isn't a tragedy, it's not even particularly a bother, but that's not my point. My entire point is that it ISN'T that simple--it's part of a larger dynamic in play that a lot of people don't think about or aren't aware of, men in particular.

I'm asking the question, "Okay well *WHY* do most men like shaved women?" There are reasons why we think the way we think and larger forces that play out in how we react to certain things. Shaving is sort of a silly example because it IS so trivial, but these same ideas come out in less trivial ways too, that's why they're important to think about.

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Like carnivores to carnal pleasures, so were we to desperate measures...

Dirty

I don't know WHY all men like shaved women. Here is why I like them though... A shaved woman's body is more beautiful to me... just seems more delicate.


Actually I'm just gonna sum it up and say that the body of a shaved womans just turns me on. When I'm eating pussy, the last thing I want is to have to journey through a goddamn jungle to do it. When I'm laying in bed, I don't want to roll over into a facefull of armpit hair tickling my face.

Should I be ashamed of these feelings or feel bad because of them?? I don't think so.

Nine Black Poppies

I never said you should be ashamed or feel bad. All I'm asking you to do is 1) consider your own thought process on a deeper level--for example, why might delicacy be associated with beauty--2) at least consider being open to new ideas for the sake of bettering one's self and society as a whole, and 3) acknowledge that there are points of view you don't understand--that even though it's sort of silly in this case, this might be part of an important subject to some people and that that's valid.

And as an aside, speaking as someone who's eaten hairy pussy, I didn't find it especially different from eating shaved pussy. If you're really into what you're doing, you don't really notice it. And as someone who's been eaten, believe me, you want to be that into what you're doing.

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Like carnivores to carnal pleasures, so were we to desperate measures...

Dirty

I am always open to new ideas and obviously realize my point of view is exactly that... MY point of view. To be honest I don't really care all that much why delicate and beauty are associated together. Let's say I come to a conclusion and figure out why they're associated..Now what? Does it really change my opinion on beauty? No. I prefer a smooth body next to me or under me and that isn't going to change.

VEGANGELICA

Believe me, if I'd seen this thread before now, I would have entered the conversation earlier. I agree with your viewpoint on shaving, Burning Down. I don't want society to pressure women to feel bad about a part of their bodies...so bad that they have to remove any sight of it.

Nine Black Poppies, I agree completely that the unwritten rule that women need to shave or else face extreme ridicule in public is part of a larger patriarchal view that women's value, more so than men's value, is derived from their appearance.

Recent research papers have explored the origin of the hairlessness norm for women in Western society during the last 100 years. The reason this is important is that before that time, as far as we can tell, men in the U.S., U.K., etc., didn't have any notion that a woman's body hair was ugly. In other words, the view that women's body hair is ugly is constructed by people in society and isn't written in stone.

I stopped shaving in my 20s because I felt I could no longer, through my actions, strengthen a social norm with which I disagree so fundamentally. I decided to accept my body as it is, rather than continue to pretend that I don't have body hair and give power to those who define women's underarm hair and leg hair as gross.

You asked what happens when a woman in a relationship stops shaving. One reason I am outspoken in opposing the hairless norm for women is that I want to try to help change society so that other women don't have to go through what I did. I hope someday that men won't feel disgusted by women's natural bodies, and women won't have to face this disgust.

In my situation, I had been dating someone I loved very much, and vice versa, for 2 years. We lived together, knew each other's family, enjoyed being together (yes, that way), had much in common...and were really on track to becoming life partners. But when I finally decided to do what I'd wanted to do for years (but had felt too scared to do)...stop shaving...he found out that my underarm hair revolted him. The same hair he had under his very own arms on ME became revolting.

Seeing someone who loves you react with revulsion, against his will...and then say that either you shave or we can't be together...is...painful. I felt hurt to be judged so much based on my appearence. I also wondered this: if I had to be "pretty" and sleek and "delicate" all the time for him, how was he ever going to truly be a partner and supportive when I did something REALLY natural, like give birth to our child in a gush of blood and sweat, or die for that matter? I chose to end our relationship rather than act as if a part of my body were so awful that I had to shave it off and give in to his requirement that I shave. I couldn't bear to be with someone, even someone whom I loved dearly, who couldn't bear to be with me as I truly am as a human.

I abhor it when people pressure women to appear "delicate." If we as women are truly more delicate than men in some ways, then fine...but don't try to MAKE us be "delicate" and childlike in appearance.

I also loathe the idea that just because something is a cultural norm, we "have to follow it." ALL of you create social norms, and ALL of you can change these norms. We create them after all, so we can change them.

If shaving armpit hair were truly for a health reason, why aren't men usually shaving it?

Shaving underarm hair is *not* for a health reason, Infantry. Shaving hair is cultural. I agree with you that hair is natural. I wish it were true that someone who is really attracted to you would focus less on the hair and more on you as a person. My experience says that for men who have been brain-washed by this cultural norm, doing so is difficult.

Definitely German! Unfortunately, many men (and women) DO feel women's underarm hair is gross and disgusting, right-track.

Men calling women unladylike because they have their body hair is ironic, I feel, since men are usually at their most ungentlemanly when they put a woman down because of her appearance.

Societal conventions are constructed by people...and can be deconstructed by people, rather than simply accepted as unchangeable. Underarm hair is neither fundamentally attractive nor unattractive on women or on men. Biologically, it simply signals sexual maturity. Saying that "in essence, women's underarm hair isn't aesthetically pleasing to the eyes" is false, Dr. Seuss. It's just hair, and how people view it is based largely on their cultural upbringing and experiences.

And no...not all women are certain to shave their hair, but it isn't easy to face the stares and the ridicule, the revulsion, the pressure, the hurtful comments from loved-ones. Still, refusing to shave is a great way to find friends who accept you and love you for who you are.

Stopping shaving was one of the best decisions I've ever made for myself, because accepting my body hair helped me experience greater self-acceptance overall. I refused to tear myself down emotionally...or physically. No longer defining yourself by other people's negative views of your body is very liberating.

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right-track

Like I said. That's unfair and ignorant.

A true gentleman would never comment on a woman's appearance.
They wouldn't be seen dead with a hairy woman either.

Refusing to shave your underarm hair does no more to empower women, than a man growing a beard makes a man more manly.
I can't help but feel your decision to grow your arm pit hair came with the feminist package you bought into along with the veganism.
I'm prepared to stand corrected, but it's all so typical. And not entirely necessary to tick all the feminist boxes to be a real woman.

VEGANGELICA

Bah. Great gentlemen are seen with hairy women. I know several!

Men grow beards all the time; there isn't much empowerment needed there. (In fact, in some countries, men need support to be ABLE to shave if they want to.)

A man does not have to be particularly brave in the U.K. to sport a beard, does he? People don't usually stand and laugh and point and stare at a man with a beard, do they? Maybe a bit of jovial joking about...but not outright derision or distaste, treating you as if you were hardly human? As if you were some detestable THING.

In comparison, I think very few women feel brave enough not to shave. I think they KNOW what they would face as unshaven women in society, and it isn't pretty, in my experience. Being treated like a detestable thing is one of the worst feelings, I'd say.

Knowing even one woman who does not shave does in fact empower others, right-track. I was empowered by seeing one brave woman in public who didn't shave and yet managed to lead a happy life. She was a dancer, and younger than I am. I admired her a lot. Her bravery made me realize I, too, could be brave...which means doing something even when you are afraid to. And I was definitely scared to stop shaving. I never wanted to start...and for years I wanted to stop, but feared the backlash.

Do you know a lot of vegans, right-track? I don't, and I *am* a vegan. So I'd be surprised if being a vegan ANYTHING is typical.

I assume most women are feminists. Most women support women's rights. Most men do, too, at least in the West. So the fact that I support feminist causes (like women's reproductive rights) is probably not related directly to my deciding to become vegan. I became vegan long after I identified with being a feminist...which probably happened sometime in grade school.

However, I'd say both of my stances on women's rights and veganism stem from a related feeling: I don't want people to be mean to women, and I don't want people to be mean to animals. Although there is a relationship between veganism and feminism, they aren't always bound together. Most feminists aren't vegans.

Being a "real" woman has nothing to do with whether a woman has her hair or not. As long as a person identifies herself as a woman, I feel she is a woman.

What the hair issue does have to do with is whether women are taught...and accept the message...that their bodies are gross as they are. I stand firmly and say...NO, women's bodies are NOT gross.

I should think more men, out of simple humanity, would make such a stand on behalf of women in their lives. Pity, that so few do.

Aren't you a feminist, right-track? What does feminism mean to you?

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right-track

My definition of a feminist is a woman who adds a woman's touch to what is perceived to be a man's world.
Sadly, too many modern women seem hell bent on being ladettes these days.
Emily Pankhurst must be spinning in her grave.
Personally, I blame Thatcher for that particular phenomenon. Here was a woman who had the perfect opportunity to add the woman's touch to the world of cut throat politics.
Unfortunately she opted to behave more like a man, than a man.

I also blame the invention of the washing machine.