Janszoon

I think people should be able to do whatever they want. Why should I care whether they shave or not?

For what it's worth, I'd love to be able to wear sandals and sleeveless shirts around the office in the summer the way women are allowed to.

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Astronomer

I would love to not have to wear a bra every single day, is this another thing that females dislike about their gender just out of curiosity? (I'm directing this question at the girls, here). Because I hate bras so much, they are the most uncomfortable things in the world, I would love be able to just wear a shirt without a bra, and not worry about my boobs jiggling around or nipples showing. I hate bras.

I also would have loved to wear pants during high school, instead of the segregated boys and girls uniforms, which still occur in Australia and many other places in the world. So impractical.

I also agree with Janszoon in that people should just do whatever they want. There seems to be so many guys on here who seem to have ridiculous standards regarding female bodily hair which really disturbs/ perplexes me. I don't have high standards when it comes to male body OR facial hair. I admit that I think some guys look better without or with facial hair or body hair but if they don't want to shave areas of their body then why should I interfere with that? There is more to life than hair.

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Janszoon

Well at my high school there was no uniform. Girls could wear pants or skirts or dresses or whatever they wanted, while I'm sure any boy showing up to school in a skirt would've been sent home. We also had a rule against wearing outdoor jackets or hats to class but they only enforced it with the boys.

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jibber

This is another reason why it's good to be a woman, there isn't a single item of clothing that people would look twice at a woman wearing. Even wearing a tuxedo to a formal event isn't all that uncommon anymore (so long as it's nicely tailored). A man however showing up in a sparkling evening gown...

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TheBig3

To go with this, and the beard issue in the work place (I was asked to shave once if I wanted to promotion they were offering me - then mocked for the baby face I was hiding once I did) I think it highlights a disparity of progress.

Women had suffrage then feminism to highlight what they felt they were lacking in a society of equals. Men haven't really seen the same rebellion come to the forefront. I genuinely feel as if women have been given many more options from the traditional roles of the Patriarchy but the roles men occupied then are still expected to stick.

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VEGANGELICA

Men tried to fight these traditional and limiting expectations and hazing in the 1970s...long hair, and all...but I agree with you that this attempt didn't stick. Men seem very pressured to have short hair...the whole "military, clean-cut" look. I think society tells men that they need to all look the same, while women are "allowed" more individuality and self-expression.

If my office did what yours did, I would be furious. Did you *have* to shave for the promotion, or was it just a request? Would they have not giving you the promotion if you didn't shave? That's awful.

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TheBig3

It wasn't that clear cut (I suspect for legal reasons). They spoke to my supervisor and said "we'd like to promote him, can you get him to shave?" I told her no flatly at first but I didn't want to be left behind, 4 new positions were opening and if I wasn't in that position, I'd be reporting to the other 3 and someone who took my spot, so I did it.

The job thing was a little understandable I suppose since I was front-line in Customer Service then, so they were looking for someone who gave the image of top-of-the-line, Hilton-level professionalism.

Its not really the hair style's that I'd say are the issue. You can wear your hair a lot longer than the Military cut and be accepted into high society, but the stigma that you're supposed to be the support system for the family, you're supposed to be independent, you're supposed to be a rock.

The social limitations are perpetuated by men. I think the "provider" element is still perpetuated by women. Not all of them - not all men care what your hair looks like - but if I were to go on a first date and I wasn't paying for dinner I doubt there'd be a second.

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VEGANGELICA

Boo boo, I feel your joke at adidasss' expense is sexist, homophobic, and hurtful. I wish you wouldn't have made it.

You are trying to say that adidasss' point isn't valid or important (when in fact it is a good point, and I know that because I agree with him! ). Yet instead of saying your feelings, you try to put him down by claiming he is a woman, so that's sexist AND homophobic. Being gay has nothing to do with someone's gender identity. Also, there is nothing wrong with women menstruating and having mood changes related to hormone fluctuations.

I agree.

I agree that people should be able to do what they want with their bodies and not be disciminated against either socially or in their jobs because of their bodies' physical appearance.

If you weren't getting a job because you are disabled and someone doesn't like how you look, you'd feel that is wrong (right?). So, if you aren't getting a job because you are fat or you have a beard and someone doesn't like how you look, that should also be wrong. Why care? Because someday it might be YOU being discriminated against? I care because people are hurt by discrimination.

Why can't you wear sandals and sleeveless shirts around the office?

I stopped wearing a bra around 10 years ago, for the very reasons you mention...and yes, my breasts jiggle and my nipples show, and sometimes I feel a little uncomfortable about that...exposed, as if I were being lewd by not wearing a bra. But I fight that feeling of fear because I know that's how breasts are and there's nothing wrong with them. It's very liberating! And no one has ever commented on or reacted to my not wearing a bra in public, so that makes it easier.

Girls being forced to wear skirts in school sounds SO archaic, Lateralus! That's one great thing about most U.S. public schools: no uniforms.

If all the girls in an Australian school organized and wore pants on one day, I bet the school district would change its uniform policy quickly. How sad that the *parents* haven't stood up and fought this old-fashioned, sexist uniform policy!

Yep, I argued earlier in the thread that one of the reasons I like being a woman rather than a man is that women in the U.S. have a lot of social freedom regarding dress and physical appearance, just like you say. Where I live, I can wear shirt or pants, have long head hair or short hair, pretty much wear anything I like. The one remaining sexist problem regarding dress here is that I can't expose my breasts in public unless I'm breastfeeding, while men go topless all the time without being arrested.

Another benefit of being a U.S. woman is that no one mutilated my clitoris, while here in the U.S. people cut little baby boys' penises all the time just for looks and tradition.

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Janszoon

Because I'm male. It's generally considered too casual for a man to wear sandals and sleeveless shirts in a typical office setting but fine for women.

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Tea Supremacist

Off the hair debate for a moment... Vegan, what are the attitudes to breastfeeding in public where you are? Over here (or perhaps just the area I'm in?) the attitude is quite conservative, which is a shame. In some places, what is a natural activity can be viewed as fairly offensive. Just a couple of weeks ago I met a friend for lunch and the woman on the table next to us was breastfeeding her baby. The Manager came straight over and asked if she could go somewhere else and do it as it was 'putting off the other customers' (this was a half empty fecking Deli/Cafe, not some glitzy resturant!). She was reduced to having to go to the bathroom and sit on the toilet to breastfeed her child (I was a little confused as to how it was fair to ask her to go somewhere else without providing any appropriate facilities), which I thought was a little too far. It's not the first time I've seen this happen and it's something that I actually find a little upsetting.

Another case was when a group of friends and myself were having some lunch in the grounds of the castle (yeah, that's right, we have a castle to go lunch at where I live!) - these are public grounds and on a nice day it's a great place for families to go for a picnic or whatever. Anyway, one family had a baby and the woman began to breastfeed it. Within minutes, a Mother from another family asked her if she could move or do it in private as she didn't want her children (maybe 6-8 years old) to see 'things like that'.

Sorry for the rant, and veering slightly off topic, but I'm curious to know if everywhere is like this or whether I just come from a conservative, narrowminded area! From speaking to people who are against public breastfeeding it seems to stem from both men AND women, rather than it just being a bit of an uncomfortable thing for a bloke to be around (which, at a push, I can understand). I understand that back in the day it was quite a private thing to do, but surely it can't cause offense these days?

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