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Originally Posted by mr dave
i also totally agree with all your other points.
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Yeay! We agree on something! And you actually read my post, too.
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though i must say body image stigma has definitely started to affect both genders in recent times though still not as harshly for men as women. but when you see men's 'health' magazines in the grocery store and most of the guys in the photos look like Adidasss' avatar it makes my skinny frame feel quite out of place (being built like a female runway model isn't quite that awesome when you're the one with the penis).
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Skinny-framed people probably have a better body mass index. So, maybe you'll live longer than some beefy guy! I agree pressure on men to conform to beauty ideals is increasing, such as through the "manscaping" trend.
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here's a 'fresh' conspiracy theory for the afternoon as well. ever notice how there are no actual deodorants (to cover up the smell of the sweat) specifically marketed to women? only antiperspirants (to block pores to actually stop the sweat from happening). the conspiracy being a MUCH higher rate of breast cancer to those without deodorants.
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I *have* noticed that more deoderants appear to be marketed toward men, and antiperspirants toward women. I guess men are "allowed" to sweat, but it has to smell like musk, while women aren't even supposed to sweat at all!
I did read one study that found that women who shave their underarms and use deoderant/antiperspirants had breast cancer diagnosed at earlier ages, but other studies found no correlation, so whether there is a link isn't certain, mr dave. So, I don't think we can claim conspiracy just yet!
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Originally Posted by boo boo
if all vegan is fighting for is for women to have a choice I have no problem with that, but they do have a choice, if she made the choice not to do it why can't any other woman?
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Rebel that I am now, boo boo, I didn't used to be. Even for me, stopping shaving, choosing not to put down a part of my body anymore, and dealing with the negative social ramifications was a very difficult decision to make and took quite a number of years of inner debate leading up to the decision. Stopping shaving resulted in very disappointing situations with people I loved...but in the end my decision not to shave my body hair was worth it because it helped me be more caring toward myself and become a stronger person.
"Why can't any other woman" make my decision? While living in the Midwest over the course of my life I have only ever seen THREE other women who don't shave. I think you underestimate how hard of a choice not shaving is...and how strongly susceptible people are to peer pressure, plus how adverse the reactions of people are to women who defy the hairlessness norm. Whether a woman has body hair or not becomes more important to some people than who she is as a person.
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Originally Posted by boo boo
And that is their choice just as it is a choice for a lot of men to shave their beards and cut their hair. And it's also a choice for women to shave their heads which has the duality of being an act of nonconformity AND being physically unnatural so I don't know what your stance on that is.
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The difference between a woman shaving her head and shaving her body is that her natural head hair is not considered a source of shame or disgust by society, while her body hair is. So, women are not pressured by society to shave their heads, but they ARE extremely pressured to shave their legs and underarms by society/advertising. This is true in the U.S. at least, and apparently also in Canada, England and in Australia, where over 90% of college age women shave, though I hope there is less pressure there.
The similarity between women shaving/waxing their bodies and women shaving their heads is that the result of that decision is that society thinks you are weird...though do people react to women's bald heads with *disgust*? I suspect they do not...whereas the response to women's body hair is usually a feeling of revulsion, distaste, etc.
Both actions go against the norm that women have hairless bodies but long head hair and so are considered to make women more "masculine." Like kayleigh mentioned, she feels if a woman even has short hair, some people think you are a lesbian...so there is pressure to have long hair (which I didn't realize...I was surprised to hear there was still pressure to have long hair). So, I suspect people see a bald woman and feel confused...especially since it is often linked with cancer.
I am all for women shaving their heads if they want to. I just would recommend that they protect their skin from the sun.
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Originally Posted by Tea Supremacist
We've agreed that yes, shaving legs is a social norm and something that we would probably never do of our own free will if it weren't. But at the same time, from what I see here, I look at things a slightly different way. I have tattoos, Boo Boo has a beard and long hair, you don't shave your legs - these are all against social norms yet we still do it to 'better' (or at least alter) our appearance and distinguish us from others. It just so happens that your particular gripe is less common than the others.
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Tea Supremacist, thanks for all your comments on this issue! I like hearing your perspective. Most interesting to me is your statement that shaving body hair is probably something women would never do of their own free will if it weren't a norm. I agree with that completely. Women only began shaving their underarms in Western culture in the 1920s, due to a U.S. advertising campaign, and then started shaving their leg hair in the 1940s. Part of the sales pitch was that shaving would make women more "economically successful." This fairly recent hairlessness norm then jumped the ocean to your country and Australian women...English speakers.
Like I wrote earlier in another post, the difference I see between getting a tattoo or having fun-colored head hair, and shaving your body hair, is that your skin and head hair aren't considered disgusting by society, while your leg and underarm hair probably would be. I don't want people to be told by society that there is something ugly about their body...especially since almost all women would HAVE visible leg hair and underarm hair (if they let it grow).
I feel it is wrong to tell a whole section of the human population that how their bodies are is ugly. That is the reason I don't shave my body hair: I am defying a culture that tells girls and women that their bodies aren't okay.
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Originally Posted by Vanilla
Bahaha I'd laugh at any girl with hairy legs. I'm a judgmental bitch though.
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Maybe you would feel differently if the girl were your own daughter.
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