VEGANGELICA

This is a long post, even for me!

Yep, it is certainly true that there are phenotypic trends distinguishing the sexes, but still there is overlap: not all men are stronger than women; not all men have heavy facial hair, etc. I agree with you that it is nice when people, regardless of gender, advocate for each other to be whom they wish to be and don't put each other down.

If a pregnancy is wanted, then I think it is a beautiful thing, in a very physical, gritty, raw, bloody, and vomity way.

Liz! You're back! Since I never had strong menstrual pains before giving birth, labor pains were new to me...but you are right, I now realize they feel like strong menstrual pains.

You wondered what it was like to push out the baby. Actually pushing out my baby didn't feel too bad...after 24 hours of labor pains, the pushing part didn't feel more painful for me...and I think the baby's head kind of numbs you. For me, the pushing felt like trying to push out a BM. I had to force the baby out. It felt all voluntary; my uterus didn't seem to be contracting much on her (?) own. I pushed so hard that I ripped my own vagina...which is common, and it heals well after stitches.

Hmm...this last sentence may not encourage many people to experience childbirth!

Tore, this is very interesting, because I feel completely gender neutral, and my gender doesn't define me as a person to the very core of my being at all! The core of my being simply feels alive, neither male nor female.

I agree about enjoying being able to be the one who gets to grow the child, feel her/him move, etc. I tend to like to DO things, and I don't want to miss out. Also, giving birth made me feel very ALIVE, mortal, and yet also connected to all the mothers, and mothers' mothers (etc. etc.) down the tree of life.

"Broody." I can relate! I had a distinct "nesting phase." It was a warm, cosy time of my life, focused almost completely on the child I wanted to welcome into the world.

ABOUT WOMEN SHAVING:

Hmm...I doubt the majority of females would ever think of pulling a sharp metal blade over a vast surface of their body to cut off their hair if doing so weren't a social norm.

I would be interested, Tea Supremicist and Burning Down, to hear your opinions on why you shave if you stopped shaving, went out in public in shorts or a tank top, and experienced people's reactions to your leg and underarm hair (their stares, their cruel comments).

Maybe people in the UK and Canada don't react like they do in the U.S., but after facing ridicule as one does here, I think it would be hard for a woman to say she truly shaves because she WANTS to. Rather, I think she would admit that she shaves because she knows that if she doesn't, she will be ridiculed, and SHE HAS BEEN TAUGHT TO BELIEVE THAT HER BODY HAIR IS UGLY!!!!!! After all, if a woman LIKED her leg and underarm hair, would she shave it off? So, why doesn't she like it?? THAT'S the important question to answer.

Legshaving IS conforming to social stigma. If you were an unshaven woman going out in public, then you would KNOW this, boo hoo.

Definitely, it is important for people to have choices. But when you claim that women shave simply as a positive "choice" and as personal "maintenance," when the alternative is to be mocked and viewed as hideous, while men can walk around with all their leg hair and no one bats an eye, the sexism of women shaving their hair should be obvious.

What I find sad about women shaving off their "unattractive" body hair as part of "personal hygiene" (when the same hair on a man is perfectly accepted) is that women become the instruments of their own oppression, even defending the practice...says the hairy feminist.

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boo boo

It's not really social stigma, it's not like having hairy legs would cause a social outcry, it's just not considered attractive but so are a lot of things and with all the fetishes in the world surely you will find someone with a turn on for it.

I wouldn't say I'm being a conformist sheep just because I'm not attracted to unshaven legs, that's just how I feel, I know it's "natural" and all that but I just don't find it aesthically appealing and I consider it way too manly looking and yes I know that sounds bogus coming from someone with a domehead fetish.

But yeah I'm attracted to things like that which are considered freaky and bizarre by most of society and it's something I can never get anyone to understand. I understand what it's like not to fit in. But I don't think you're a bad person if you DO.

As I argued before I think it's an unfair generalization to say all women who shave their legs are being forced to do it, it's a personal choice. Yes it's a vital method in attracting males (and c'mon attracting mates via aesthetics is just animal instinct at work) but why is it a bad thing? Especially if they are satisfied with the results for both aesthetic and yes even comfort reasons?

Again there's nothing wrong with self maintenence, women just shave their legs for the same reason you maintain other parts of your body like hair or teeth or fingernails. You could play the "but guys have hairy legs" card sure but guys also have beards. I guess you could argue that it's unfair that men can be hairy but women are encouraged not to be hairy but I'm sorry, I conform to that view, granted I take it to it's greatest extreme.

If women really hated doing it and deemed it unnecessary I think they would make the same choice as you. As long as you aren't patronizing women who choose to shave their legs. If you're not tolerant of other people's choices you will never be able to eliminate social stigma, you'll only be able to replace it with another.

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It's only knock n' knowall, but I like it

http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs

Tea Supremacist

Unfortunately for me, in the area I live in I don't really conform to the 'correct' image anyway. With the tattoos, weird haircuts and general attitude I have I'm commonly known around here as 'that dyke' or (my personal favourite) 'that freak'. I can't walk down the road without having to walk past at least one person who will comment on my appearance in a cruel way. I'm used to it now (I've never been one to conform, but not in a scary Lady Gaga way ) and I can genuinely say it really doesn't bother me. So, added to that, if I stopped shaving my legs and underarms, it would just be yet another thing for the 'locals' to pounce on - this could all be down to the fact that I live in a small village because I get less comments when I venture into the bright lights. I'm not really sure it would affect me that much. But as I said earlier, it feels nice. There's nothing better than having a long bath and feeling all smooth and moisturised and soft! I agree that it is a social norm and that it is expected of women, from other women and men alike, but for me part of it is taking pride in my appearance (even if nobody else seems to like it!) which is important to me because if I feel that I look nice and have made the effort for myself then I feel good. If that makes any sense...

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