Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry
the fact that women are expected to be 'submissive' (wear the 'skirt' in a relationship, been oppressed for years, not be professional, domestication, can't sleep around without being looked down upon, play with dolls etc, etc) while men are expected to be domineering (be professional, wear the 'trou' , play sports, etc) ... but those things, masculinity/feminism, its all made up if you think of in.
In fact while a the gym, I was thinking on this the other day (just cos I tend to be quite the contemplative individual  ) in the sense that I saw a couple o kiddos towards the care centre; A little girl and a young ladprobably no older than 6 or 7 each. The lass was in teeny shorts, doll in hand, long hair, floral printed shirt... the lad was in a baggy t-shirt, longer shorts and video game portable thing in hand. And I was just thinking how these kids are already moulded, from birth most likely, to be a 'girl' or a 'boy' and act that way. There was never a choice to drift towards one's actual interests, but they were conditioned to act one way or the other.
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Harry, I feel you make excellent points in your argument that many "gender differences" in expectations and desires are shaped by societal influences.
Expectations for women to be submissive and men to be dominant are definitely societally based. The status of women in the Western world has been rising drastically in just several generations, and this is hardly due to genetic changes!
Also, studies have shown repeatedly that people treat babies differently based on what they have been told about the child's gender: they offer different toys to them (doll to girl; car to boy), and even have more physical contact (cuddling, etc.) with girls than with boys.
I recall a relative, whose 2-year-old girl wore mostly pink clothes, saying, "I have such a girly girl! She likes all girly things!" I thought to myself, "Are you blind?!? Your daughter didn't go out and buy her own clothes, her own toys!" I think people are often unaware of all the ways they treat girls/boys differently.
I was lucky to be raised by parents who didn't enforce gender concepts on me. I made mud bombs, played in forts, had toy animals, had toy cars and trains, and a tutu and dress-up clothes...and I was never made to feel bad about any of my likes by my parents. I was lucky. I grew up without stereotypes. I've said it many times before here on MB: gender should NOT be a straight-jacket.
I suspect that whatever genetic predispositions boys and girls have toward different behaviors, they are dwarfed by the huge effect of culture.
Quote:
Originally Posted by boo boo
I still prefer women not look like dudes, and I prefer them to shave their body hair. But in America, for the most part anyway, women are no longer burdened in that way and the worst they have to deal with is dirty looks, mean comments and less guys who are attracted to them, and sometimes it can make finding a job more difficult than it would be if you fit the ideal image.
Those are things you will have to cope with. Many women are brave enough to cope with it. But the idea that if a woman chooses to be trendy and feminine looking that means she's weak is very offensive to me. They are aware that they have the choice to be other things but that is what they choose because it's their right to choose it.
As long as certain feminists ignore that aspect of reality and keep bastardizing the word "slave" by applying it to women who choose to look a certain way, they will forever be my arch nemesis.
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Boo boo, on the one hand you say women are aware they have a choice to not appear "feminine," and many choose to appear feminine because it is their right to choose...
and yet you also say that if they DON'T choose to appear "feminine" then "they will deal with dirty looks, mean comments and less guys who are attracted to them, and sometimes it can make finding a job more difficult than it would be if you fit the ideal image."
I disagree with you that many people are strong enough to willingly go through life dealing with constant dirty looks, mean comments, and problems finding jobs and mates.
I feel you underestimate the strength of peer pressure and the FEAR people have of not conforming. The fear of being outcast, especially when this may affect your potential for getting work and financial stability and a mate, is HUGE.
The enormous and damaging power of peer pressure on people's choices is obvious when we look through history.
Women used to wear corsets, and they EMBRACED this trend for years, admiring and purchasing corsets even though wearing them harmed their health. Chinese mothers crippled their own girls' feet permanently through footbinding, an excruciating procedure, to make the girls appear "attractive" to ensure they could marry well and have financial stability and high social rank.
Many women throughout the world, especially in Africa, STILL mutilate their little girls' genitals severely, in order to make them appear "attractive." And many men and women in the U.S. today mutilate their little BOYS' genitals so that they "look like their father" and so their penises are "more attractive." All to conform to gender stereotypes and strong social pressures.
And the scary thing is, the people who inflicted all these bodily changes on themselves and others did so thinking they were making a good and healthy, reasonable choice.
I feel it is logical to conclude that modern women in the Western world, who are choosing to wear make-up (often containing toxic compounds), shave huge portions of their bodies, wear damaging high-heels shoes, or wear skirts that reduce their freedom of motion, are
also succumbing to the same type of peer pressure that has pressured people for centuries to do unnecessary and often harmful things to their own bodies in order to "fit in," and yet feel psychologically that they are doing these actions voluntarily for good reasons. I feel most men abide by their own "male" rules for similar reasons.
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