Mojo

I understand that but as far as im aware none of the women posting in this thread are from those lesser developed countries. There seems to be a recurring theme here in which some members feel that being female puts them at a disadvantage and i am just interested to know why.

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Last.FM | Echoes and Dust

jibber

Well obviously, but that's not what I asked. I asked the women who responded in this thread to explain how exactly they had been really held back from something because of their gender. Many women did not say that it was more difficult, or that they faced obstacles being a woman, they said they had actually been held back from something by being a women. I'm curious to hear how that happened, because I can honestly say I've never been passed over or denied anything that I wanted because of my gender.

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What you've done becomes the judge of what you're going to do -- especially in other people's minds. When you're traveling, you are what you are right there and then. People don't have your past to hold against you. No yesterdays on the road.
William Least Heat Moon, Blue Highways

Your toughest competitor lives in your head. Some days his name is fear, or pain, or gravity. Stomp his ass.

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Goblin Tears

I wasn't responding to you.

jibber

well no but you were responding to mojopinuk, who simply said he'd like to hear the answer to my question as well, so in a way, you were responding to me. Unless you weren't responding to either of us.

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What you've done becomes the judge of what you're going to do -- especially in other people's minds. When you're traveling, you are what you are right there and then. People don't have your past to hold against you. No yesterdays on the road.
William Least Heat Moon, Blue Highways

Your toughest competitor lives in your head. Some days his name is fear, or pain, or gravity. Stomp his ass.

HOOKED ON THE WHITE POWDER

adidasss

I'll give an example. I was hired because I am a man. The firm was looking for a male because the job requires frequent contact with middle-eastern clients who look more favorably on men. Perhaps there were women who applied and were more qualified, I'll never know as they were never seriously considered. I believe there was also a consideration that a woman who was hired the year before went on maternity leave and will be out of action for at least a year. Companies frown on that. My sister also told me that her employers asked her (even though it's illegal) about her personal life (boyfriend) and whether she intended to get pregnant soon. It may not be fair, but I can also understand why employers in capitalism would prefer to hire men than women precisely because of the risk that women could get pregnant. Sucks but it happens. At least in Croatia...:\

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jibber

The cases about maternity leave and the questions about their personal life are pretty bad. I've never experienced that, although that could be due to the fact that at my age many employers don't think of me as being in the the "settling down ready to have a family" stage of my life. I know my mom had to deal with questions like that in job interviews before, but she was being interviewed by two men, one much older, one not much older than her. When the older man asked her if she had any plans to start a family, the younger one promptly told him to shut up, apologized profusely, and then offered her the job a few days later.

The other case you mentioned, in dealing with men from middle eastern cultures, is a bit more tricky because it's a direct result of the perceptions of a different culture, and I was asking more about people's experiences in the US, Canada, UK, and other european cultures. I can understand that reasoning entirely. I certainly don't agree with the sentiment that women are somehow less capable in the business world than men, but the reality is that in that area of the world, it's the norm. And no matter how much western people protest against this, it's not something that we can have any major and lasting effect on, change is going to have to come from inside those cultures to really make a difference. But that's a totally different topic.

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What you've done becomes the judge of what you're going to do -- especially in other people's minds. When you're traveling, you are what you are right there and then. People don't have your past to hold against you. No yesterdays on the road.
William Least Heat Moon, Blue Highways

Your toughest competitor lives in your head. Some days his name is fear, or pain, or gravity. Stomp his ass.

HOOKED ON THE WHITE POWDER

FETCHER.

I geniunely don't know. I like being female and looking girly, and having long hair. But men have SO many pro's. I feel women have more pressure on them also.

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Guybrush

I think it may be natural for us to consider "hairless" women (not bald) more attractive because it correlates in a general way with qualities that make women better abled mothers. Body hair can be a sign of testosterone for example and women who have a lot of it can have a real hard time getting pregnant.

Also, I think to understand the differences between the sexes, one should look at our nature. Women are the ones getting pregnant and who have to invest a a lot in sexual reproduction, so it's important for them to be choosy with who they have sex with. You don't wanna be pregnant for 9 months and rear the child of some tit who's not able to care for you and who's not even loyal. For men on the other hand, all that is not as important. The minimum amount of energy you have to spend on an offspring is the cost of sex - a little physical exertion and a sperm load. You could run off after that and never see her or the child again. A good strategy for a woman should be to be as attractive as possible so that men get interested in her. If successful, she should then be in a situation where men are competing for her and she gets to choose a victor. Then, women looking for partners are in a sort of beauty competition with eachother as men "traditionally" like qualities that indicate women are good mothers - for example that they won't die during child birth and will produce milk for the child. Not too much body hair, nice boobs and a tush to match and so on.

Men compete with other men in that they have to have qualities that make women choose them. Women traditionally like qualities that make men good at caring for them, for example that they are strong, smart, kind, loyal, protective and have a sense of humour.

Of course it's not completely like that. What I just wrote is a very rough and general idea and there are exceptions as well as specific behaviours and social systems that prevent females from being the choosers. Still, by seeing stuff like that as a general pattern in our history, I think you can answer a lot of questions about why women and men are different and where some of those differences stem from.

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Something Completely Different

VEGANGELICA

The reason it's a bad thing for women to feel pressured by society/culture to shave their bodies is that they are being told that how they are physically, naturally, is disgusting, which IS sexist and demeaning toward women, since men are not told this about their body hair.

A related, and much worse, analogy for males is the case of male genital cutting in the U.S. One reason many men and women here STILL agree and *want* their baby boys to be strapped down, spread-eagled on a circumstraint board, and have their foreskins gauged and then cut from their glans (often without anesthetic) is that Mom and Dad feel "foreskins are ugly," and Dad wants his little tyke to "look like him."

I feel it is a good thing to fight the view that women's bodies are ugly as they are naturally, just like it is a good thing to fight the notion that boys' foreskins are ugly. People should not be made to feel bad about their bodies as they are naturally.

Yes, it is unfair that men can be hairy but women are encouraged/forced/chastised to not be hairy. The problem with this norm of body shaving is that it encourages women and men to have bad and judgemental views of women's bodies as they are. Men aren't ridiculed out in public if they have beards...although perhaps they are if their beards are very long?

Brushing teeth helps protect people from cavities and gum disease. Shaving body hair has no physical benefits, wastes time, and usually results in cuts every once in a while.

My whole point, boo boo, is that for many women NOT shaving ISN'T a choice they even consider, because they are too afraid not to shave. That is why it is sad. The reason it is sexist is that men's leg and arm hair is considered okay, but women's is not. I am all for choice...that's why I want to make sure my fellow women HAVE a real choice and are not denegrated for their bodies and shamed into feeling that how their bodies are naturally is bad.

As for your contention that my not shaving is a "cry for attention," the only cry for attention I feel my hairs make is the cry to women telling them, "Your bodies are okay as your bodies naturally are!"

I understand completely the nice idea of pampering yourself, which I agree is fun. But why is shaving off your leg hair taking pride in your appearance? Why isn't *having* your leg hair taking pride in your appearance? That's what I'm getting at.

I don't feel too concerned about people's negative reactions to me and my body hair, either, though when I was younger I did (and had good reason to be). Now I think it is interesting to observe people's reactions (mostly surprise and lots of curious looks), and a quick way to find out whom you like or don't. Most people are very polite, such as recently when I was at the U.S. largest Indoor Aquatic Center. I get amused by the times when people cluster around to stare at me. That's too bad your villagers aren't used to individuality!

Whining about being persecuted is so much more fun.

Also, one of the things I like most about not shaving (and not wearing f*cking trousers) is that it requires no effort on my part. It's activism that requires no activity! When you're a "fluffy" woman and wear shorts, other women can see you and your hair and think, "Hey look! I don't have to shave and I can survive/get married/have a kid!" So, it's fun to empower people like that. The more people who get used to seeing hairy women, the easier it is for women to feel free to consider not shaving, so they don't feel forced to do it or cover up.

Of course, some women may think upon seeing me, "Eegads! Where is my rasor?!" But those are only the women who dislike how they naturally look. Please tell your sister I hope she will wear shorts if she wants to.

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mr dave

what?

she's not a hermaphrodite for one. gender bending perhaps, but packing both units. not sure where you're getting the sex drive thing from either. i was referring to the misuse of the term asexual that some people use to describe not having a sex drive, it's wrong. asexual means being a species capable of individual reproduction by being born with all necessary reproductive organs. nothing about libido. though i'm sure Tore could elaborate if necessary.




as for the shaving thing it cuts both ways but not nearly as bad on the man's face as the woman's legs. as a male you don't get any direct derision but you are treated differently when you have a badass hobo beard as compared to being clean shaven. women just seem far more direct and insidious with their genetic self-loathing than guys.

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