The Profession-al Argument

gogojessicat · 04-17-2010, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urban Hatemonger

I'd be interested to know why you think going out & earning money is somehow a bad thing where as staying in something that you don't really want to do that is costing you money is a good thing.

What's stopping you going back later in life and doing it when you know what you want to do and you're more financially secure?
My Brother in law wanted to do a degree on film studies, nothing to do with his career. It was just something he wanted to do for himself. He went back when he was 33 and spent 3 years doing it knowing if it fell through he had a good banking job as back up.

That doesn't sound like a waste of time to me.

I think "going back to school" is really difficult. Both my parents did it when I was a kid. And most of the non-traditional age students at my school give me the impression that it's not an easy task, especially when you already have a family. I think if you know you're going to want a BA you may as well do it while you're fresh and remember how to do the kind of work required in college courses.

Also, for a lot of kids it is because of societal and parental pressure that we go to college. For me, it was never a choice. I just always knew I was going to college.

And why I'd rather be in school then working? My best friends from high school didn't go on to college. They are waitresses in my home town now. I feel like they aren't working towards anything and that really scares me.
(That is what I mean by a waste).

Everyone has a different path in life. What works for your bro isn't necessarily going to work for me. I wonder though, after he got his degree did he do anything with it? Or go back to the bank job?

Mojo · 04-17-2010, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gogojessicat

And why I'd rather be in school then working? My best friends from high school didn't go on to college. They are waitresses in my home town now. I feel like they aren't working towards anything and that really scares me.
(That is what I mean by a waste).

I agree with alot of what you're saying but you seem to be overlooking the same point that others are making over and over again.

Now, im not saying that you are working towards qualifications that are not going to be of any use to you but lets say for a moment that you are. Some people are.

Your waitress friends may not be working towards anything. They may not be working towards a career but they are working and earning money. You, on the other hand, are working towards a degree that you wont use to further your career and your chosen path has cost you thousands of pounds/dollars to achieve something that you will spend a large percentage of your adult life paying off and may need to take this kind of job or any kind of job just to help with that.

In that situation, who is really better off?

gogojessicat · 04-17-2010, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mojopinuk

I agree with alot of what you're saying but you seem to be overlooking the same point that others are making over and over again.

Now, im not saying that you are working towards qualifications that are not going to be of any use to you but lets say for a moment that you are. Some people are.

Your waitress friends may not be working towards anything. They may not be working towards a career but they are working and earning money. You, on the other hand, are working towards a degree that you wont use to further your career and your chosen path has cost you thousands of pounds/dollars to achieve something that you will spend a large percentage of your adult life paying off and may need to take this kind of job or any kind of job just to help with that.

In that situation, who is really better off?

I'm working on certification to teach in NY State. I plan to teach and go to grad school. What I'm working for is a life where I don't have to work the kind of ****ty job that my friends are doing now, which I've had all my life. Maybe I don't know exactly what I want to do, but at least I know what I want and am taking steps to get there.

Though, its true a lot of degrees don't have an immediate pay off. I know plenty of kids with BA's in English working ****ty jobs. And I agree that a degree with some kind of certification is much better in terms of being immediately employable after graduation. But I think its still important to remember that an education is always worthwhile.

Antonio · 04-24-2010, 09:05 PM

from reading this thread, i guess i'll share my views on this as well

at this moment i'm finishing up my second year of college, and quite honestly while some people i know think that i'm set for life once i graduate, i'm really just scared as hell right now. the reason is that in my almost 20 years of living, i've never held a legitmate job, and right now i'm just applying to places left and right, hoping someone could consider me for ANYTHING. it's something i'm doing, not just so i could earn my own money, but mostly it's for getting the experience of actually working, because i know that if i have none by graduation time, i'm pretty screwed when finding work. this goes back to what Pete and Freebase said, just because you have a degree in hand doesn't instantly qualify you for a job, experience is important for many things and just because you studied a textbook for 4 years doesn't necessarily translate into being able to put those studied skills to use. many employers know this, and they also know that there's kids who really just messed around for four years for that "college experience" and just walk in expecting to get paid in something that they're not realistically ready to do.

as for when you should go to college, i say it's better to go when you are really sure you know what you want to do, but there's still the possibility of switching majors when you find what you really want early or in the middle of your education (like i did

). yes, it can definately be harder going later in life than just after HS, but it's not impossible. i have two aunts who both went to college after doing jobs their whole lives that required less than a degree. they're both in their mid to late 30s with two children each, and they both still graduated with their respective degrees, one in Psychology, and the other from Medical School. before they did that they weren't too sure what they wanted to do with their lives, and instead of just going with the flow when it came time where most kids after high school went to college, they both worked various jobs over the years until they were sure what they really wanted to do. even if it did take longer for them to find what they really wanted to do, in the end they are both happy that they didn't just throw away money and time picking majors they didn't have much interest in. it's like mojopinuk said, in the longrun, taking the time, knowing what you want in life and not just diving into whatever right away can work out better both financially and in terms of building yourself a future.

and that other statement about the experience of learning in college being good in itself, i can understand that sentiment, and to a certain extent i agree. hell, i switched out of architecture, but i don't regret going through it at all, it taught me not **** around on my work and it helped me GREATLY organization-wise. still, when you need money to live, just saying "oh well, at least i learned alot" isn't gonna put food on your plate.

Freebase Dali · 04-24-2010, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antonio

from reading this thread, i guess i'll share my views on this as well

at this moment i'm finishing up my second year of college, and quite honestly while some people i know think that i'm set for life once i graduate, i'm really just scared as hell right now. the reason is that in my almost 20 years of living, i've never held a legitmate job, and right now i'm just applying to places left and right, hoping someone could consider me for ANYTHING. it's something i'm doing, not just so i could earn my own money, but mostly it's for getting the experience of actually working, because i know that if i have none by graduation time, i'm pretty screwed when finding work. this goes back to what Pete and Freebase said, just because you have a degree in hand doesn't instantly qualify you for a job, experience is important for many things and just because you studied a textbook for 4 years doesn't necessarily translate into being able to put those studied skills to use. many employers know this, and they also know that there's kids who really just messed around for four years for that "college experience" and just walk in expecting to get paid in something that they're not realistically ready to do.

as for when you should go to college, i say it's better to go when you are really sure you know what you want to do, but there's still the possibility of switching majors when you find what you really want early or in the middle of your education (like i did

). yes, it can definately be harder going later in life than just after HS, but it's not impossible. i have two aunts who both went to college after doing jobs their whole lives that required less than a degree. they're both in their mid to late 30s with two children each, and they both still graduated with their respective degrees, one in Psychology, and the other from Medical School. before they did that they weren't too sure what they wanted to do with their lives, and instead of just going with the flow when it came time where most kids after high school went to college, they both worked various jobs over the years until they were sure what they really wanted to do. even if it did take longer for them to find what they really wanted to do, in the end they are both happy that they didn't just throw away money and time picking majors they didn't have much interest in. it's like mojopinuk said, in the longrun, taking the time, knowing what you want in life and not just diving into whatever right away can work out better both financially and in terms of building yourself a future.

and that other statement about the experience of learning in college being good in itself, i can understand that sentiment, and to a certain extent i agree. hell, i switched out of architecture, but i don't regret going through it at all, it taught me not **** around on my work and it helped me GREATLY organization-wise. still, when you need money to live, just saying "oh well, at least i learned alot" isn't gonna put food on your plate.

Another thing to consider is that degree or not, everyone in any workforce starts out with no experience. It's either a matter of shifting your goals to obtain that experience where you can, then using that experience for entry into something better later on... Or selling yourself successfully.
The thing to understand is that an employer has very little to go on when interviewing a prospective employee apart from what's on paper. The rest is risk. An employer mitigates this risk by using your documented work history to investigate your history as much as is legally allowed. If you have no documented work history, this isn't possible. But there are exceptions, especially if the job you're applying for is in desperate need of your expertise and you're able to sell yourself and your knowledge without having to prove anything on paper. These exceptions are a very good chance to get the job you want without previous experience as long as you know A LOT about the job from schooling or undocumented experience and are able to sell it to the employer and make him/her feel comfortable with the risk of hiring you over someone else.

While it's important to have the credentials, it's equally important to get an employer to put trust in you, as a person, to be able to get the job done.
I go to school with a guy who's in my field who got a very good job without even having a degree or experience on paper, but he's had individual experience doing the job just in daily life and interest. He was able to sell his skills simply by having an interview with the department head, based on knowledge.
It's what it all comes down to. Knowledge of the field. On paper, it's proof... but knowledge isn't only knowledge if it's on paper. I just think it's important to remember that.

lucifer_sam · 04-25-2010, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freebase Dali

Another thing to consider is that degree or not, everyone in any workforce starts out with no experience. It's either a matter of shifting your goals to obtain that experience where you can, then using that experience for entry into something better later on... Or selling yourself successfully.
The thing to understand is that an employer has very little to go on when interviewing a prospective employee apart from what's on paper. The rest is risk. An employer mitigates this risk by using your documented work history to investigate your history as much as is legally allowed. If you have no documented work history, this isn't possible. But there are exceptions, especially if the job you're applying for is in desperate need of your expertise and you're able to sell yourself and your knowledge without having to prove anything on paper. These exceptions are a very good chance to get the job you want without previous experience as long as you know A LOT about the job from schooling or undocumented experience and are able to sell it to the employer and make him/her feel comfortable with the risk of hiring you over someone else.

While it's important to have the credentials, it's equally important to get an employer to put trust in you, as a person, to be able to get the job done.
I go to school with a guy who's in my field who got a very good job without even having a degree or experience on paper, but he's had individual experience doing the job just in daily life and interest. He was able to sell his skills simply by having an interview with the department head, based on knowledge.
It's what it all comes down to. Knowledge of the field. On paper, it's proof... but knowledge isn't only knowledge if it's on paper. I just think it's important to remember that.

Something to add to this, which (I believe) is relevant to all technical majors:

Industry experience becomes something of a catch-22 during your formative years as a professional. It is INSANELY difficult to obtain a job in a niche or smaller market without first working your way through other jobs which are relevant to the position at hand. Companies will not hire entry-level technical majors based solely upon years spent at school or prior (unrelated) work experience. And obtaining that relevant industry experience can be both difficult and time-consuming.

Personally I feel that I could get a job upon graduation without having to search very far, but it certainly wouldn't be in my intended field of study. Not to mention it will become very difficult to leave that field once I actually have the necessary experience to apply for other work. I've actually taken precautions to ensure that my school experience doesn't go to waste by spending an inordinate amount of time in a machine shop and earning certifications that would allow me to work a blue-collar job in the manufacturing industry without extensive training. This I believe would be helpful in the event of a layoff but I'm aware that I can't make the same career out of it.

But in the end, the old adage proves correct: it comes down to who you know, not what you know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pourmeanother

We're in agreement on random degrees not guaranteeing any job, we don't need to beat that anymore. However, by and large yes a degree is better than no degree. On a person-to-person basis that is not necessarily true... There will be high school dropouts who get hired for certain jobs over college grads, and there are certainly other factors that come into play. Looking at the big picture, though, yes, a degree can yield better, higher paying jobs. One big point I wanted to make is that I'm not going to get caught up in some anecdotal evidence of one person's cousin (or was it sister?) working at a Starbucks after college. That happens all the time, sure- but on average it is not the case. Statistics show that degrees lead to these higher positions, better salaries, etc, so obviously that little piece of paper deserves more credit than it is being given here.

Without offering unnecessary personal information about my family, it was a situation where she simply reached a dead end. Being insanely intelligent and resourceful only helps people so far, when the job market is garbage the reality is that people turn to different avenues. That's not to say that people aren't better off with a degree, but just any degree defeats the purpose of going to college in the first place.