Janszoon

Sure thing.

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lucifer_sam

I did shift focus a bit, my bad. I was using the English major as an example but I was applying it toward all degrees within the liberal arts spectrum.

And actually, it's funny that you mention it, but right now my career field is as expansive as mechanical engineering field itself is. Grad school is really where you orient your focus towards a specific field, but mechanical engineers are in demand in virtually every major industry.

I find your own perspective somewhat humorous on the matter. What common job would require the expansive knowledge of an English major over someone who's simply competent at writing professionally? There's a ceiling for knowledge in all careers where further pursuit simply becomes academic, I think you reach that level much quicker in an English major than an engineering one.

You're definitely right though. Communication skills ARE prized in industry, (and not just communications industries!) but I don't believe an English degree is necessary to see those promotions when writing requirements are mostly satisfied by being an able technical writer.

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Janszoon

I gave some examples earlier: copywriter, editor, proposal writer, grant writer, journalist.

Because basically everyone is able to write I think this is a common misconception, but the fact is that being a great writer is a skill that is as difficult to obtain as any other professional skill.

No offense but I think your view on this is somewhat myopic. Look in other, non-technical areas and you'll see situations where being an able technical writer is definitely not enough. For example, in the kinds of industries I work in—such as advertising, marketing and publishing—great writers are a key part of the equation.

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A Night in the Life of the Invisible Man

Time & Place

25 Albums You Should Hear Before the Moon Crashes into the Earth and We All Die

last.fm

Astronomer

I think a lot of you are underrating what an education can do for you. It's a known fact that those who complete tertiary education will earn more money in their lifetime than those who do not, and will be more employable. But note that I said 'tertiary education' and not necessarily a university degree. Over here, you are much much much more employable if you have completed further study following the end of high school, and you will earn more money than someone who hasn't. I know money isn't everything but that is a true statistic.

That being said, I do agree that a lot of people go to university for the wrong reasons, for example being pressured by their parents. There are many other options for furthering your education that don't involve BA degrees or university or college, such as TAFE courses and other training programs.

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Freebase Dali

I don't know how my story will apply to people at universities getting BA's in general educational fields, but it may provide a little insight into my thinking regarding education:

When I joined the Army, I specifically made it a point to join as a Network Administrator because I wanted the experience. I knew even before joining that it's not only a profitable field and rapidly expanding, but it's what I've always been good at and enjoy doing. So I racked up 6 years of military experience in the IT field and now that I'm out, the military is paying me to go to college. I get benefits for a 4 year degree at a university, but I chose to go to a technical college dealing with exactly the same field I already have 6 years of knowledge and experience in. Why? Well for one, you never really know as much as you think you know.. so the educational aspect is imperative if you want to be able to function and progress in your field, but also because just having a focused degree in the field you're making a career out of SIGNIFICANTLY improves your chances at a higher salary and hire rate, and in most cases is a prerequisite. That, along with IT certifications, is what sets one guy apart from the next when being considered for a focused IT career. And it can literally mean tens of thousands of dollars in salary differences.

So what does this mean to me?
Well, I think education is a functional resource. While it may give a lot of people the warm and fuzzies to be content just having a higher education for the sake of having it, I'd personally like to think that if you're going to invest yourself educationally, that you're going to use it to some extent and that it's going to give you an advantage at least in some aspect, otherwise it's almost wasted because it's not being used to contribute to anything productive. It's like buying a beautiful Les Paul guitar autographed by... I dunno.. Elvis. It's a great talking piece and it certainly holds a lot of pride for yourself... you look at it every time you pass it on the way to the bathroom. But you never play it and the only time you touch it is when you're wiping a layer of dust off it.
It's understandable as a showpiece, but as far as higher education is concerned, I don't think it was ever meant to be one.

You can know more than the next guy, but if you're not using the knowledge, you're not doing anything different.

Scarlett O'Hara

A degree is a degree, it indicates you are somewhat competent to follow some kind of career path even if it isn't the one your degree was related to. I would never disregard one.

In a lot of career paths you need more than just a bachelors anyhow. Most careers require some form of tertiary education, even if it isn't at college.

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LoathsomePete

I agree with Freebase and Sam to a degree and here's why:

1) I know what it's like to work and I know that experience can often times be more beneficial than someone with a degree. An employer is looking for someone who is competent enough to perform the task assigned to them and able to show up to work on time. A 22-year old fresh out of college with a BA in hand but with no actual work experience probably won't stand much of a chance getting a more basic job if they were competing with a 44-year old man who has a steady list of previously held jobs on their resume. I am very weary for some of my friends who are graduating this year and have absolutely no job experience, or really life experience outside of going to school.

I took 3 years off between graduating high school and enrolling in college because I wasn't sure what I really wanted to do yet. I also found out that I got a small inheritance and moved to the U.K. for 6 months and drink away said inheritance, but that turned out to be beneficial to me. I came back to Canada with about $200 CND and had to get a job straight away to pay my father who was charging me rent, my phone bill, and food + entertainment expenses. I then got a job working at a lumberyard for $18.90 an hour because I had two years previous experience. Not only did I get a higher starting pay, but I also was put on a forklift straight away because I had forklift experience and was a certified forklift driver. Now that is kind of a blend of experience and education because I did have to take an 8 hour class to get certified, but it was easy because I was already taught how to drive a forklift at my first lumberyard when I was 15. There were a lot of kids straight out of high school working there too because the pay was better than anything else in the area, but it was a physically demanding job and many of them quit after a week or two.

The years I spent working there helped teach me a lot about life in general, something that you won't learn in school. It taught me how to deal with co-workers who are either stupid, lazy, or *******s without getting into big yelling matches (at least all the time) as well as dealing with entitled customers. That kind of people experience just can't be learned on the same level in college. I also learned a lot of things about finding an apartment, how to balance a weekly budget to afford rent, utilities, food, etc. I also learned how to deal with landlords, how to properly inspect an apartment for previous damage so when I move out the landlord can't hold me accountable for that damage prior to my moving in. I also learned how to get up and do things even if I didn't want to, I couldn't be late to work or else I risked getting fired, yet if I'm late to class I just miss whatever the instructor was saying. Those three years taught me so much that I've been trying to pass on to friends about to leave the safety net of education that has encompassed their lives for the past 18 years or so, but I'm not sure if what I've been saying has gotten through.

In regards to people going into college without a clear idea of what they want to do, my argument has always been to go to a community college first and pay less. Cheaper classes with the same level of education that you'd get at a more renowned college or university. There are always transfer degrees which get all the core classes out of the way and give you time to decide what it is you want to do and hopefully in two years time you'll have a more clear idea of what it is you want to pursue.

Finally I'm not really sure what to think of the kids who are just going to college or university for the experience. They are usually the kids in high school that just did the bare minimum to pass the classes and are continuing that streak in college. They will just pass their classes and begrudgingly be handed a piece of paper and will then toil away the rest of their lives, content with a six pack of Bud in the fridge and pizza pockets in the freezer. Then again I know that for a lot of kids, college is that first time experience away from their overbearing parents who tried to protect them from the evils of the world so they have 18 years of fun to make up. At the same time there are lots of people who want to go to college and excel but cannot afford the experience, so the kids listed earlier can kind of **** off and die.

Ultimately though I don't know what the answer is. Yes a degree is important in this world, 30 years ago you could get by with a high school diploma but these days you need a BA just to do something that won't destroy your back or knees in 25 years time. A degree will always look good on a resume because it shows that you're capable of following orders for a set number of years, even if the degree has **** all to do with the job. A degree shows dedication and that can be just as vital as 20 years of experience to an employer. But as Freebase and Sam said, the notion that a college diploma is your golden ticket to easy street is a very misguided and frighteningly popular idea right now that will lead a lot of people to the harsh realities of life.

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pourmeanother

You come across as really condescending in this thread, and other posts I've seen you make on the topic of school/career.

Basically, here's my understanding of it: You shouldn't go to college unless you're an engineering major. You should get a job at your local Starbucks, because if you aspire to pursue a passion at a higher level, and, heaven forbid, pay to follow that path, you will ultimately wind up working at that Starbucks anyway.... like my cousin, which means everyone is like that.

Congratulations on being an engineer. You can now build stuff. I still fail to see how that makes your choices any better than, say, an Art major, if that's what they enjoy.

I still don't know what I want to do with my life, and my college career is about to come to a close. So, I guess instead of pursuing business and engineering at my university, I should have done what every other shmuck at my high school did... Go to a local JuCo for 6 years at little or no cost- taking non-academic classes like "Human Sexuality" and "Zumba Dance"- and working $10 an hour jobs like front desk attendant at Hotel 'x', or teller at Bank 'y', while living with my parents and never saving enough to have a shot at moving out.

Having seen you post before, I'm fairly certain your intent is NOT to come across that way, at all.... But, unfortunately, you are.

So there aren't jobs available right now. EVERYONE is under a crunch. When the jobs pick up, as they inevitably will, who do you think will be hired first? The person who sacrificed and succeeded in earning a bachelor's degree in these tough times, or the high school graduate with three years experience working that soft serve machine at Dairy Queen? I don't care if you were the first person to stack chocolate-vanilla swirl a foot high on a waffle cone- you aren't better off.

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Freebase Dali

I'm getting the feeling that people here simply think that having a degree of any type guarantees entry into a career. Sorry to say, but you can't get a job that requires certain skills just because you spent years achieving an arbitrary degree that has absolutely nothing to do with the field, and with no experience to boot.
Getting, and being eligible for, a job that requires a specific knowledge, does not hinge on the ability of a person to sit in a classroom for 4 years. It kinda hinges on you knowing what the fuck you're talking about when it comes to your job.
College kinda provides that possibility. It's a guarantee to your employer to at least some degree and serves as a baseline for hiring in many cases. But that baseline isn't simply the presence of a "degree" that serves absolutely no functional purpose in the job.

By the way... I kinda wonder... Why would you want to major in something if you have absolutely no idea what you want to do in life? Maybe my logic is retarded, but it seems like a person might want to um... spend time, effort and money on something he/she is going to actually use.

mr dave

^absolutely agreed.

what's on your piece of paper doesn't matter. the fact that you can put up with the bureaucratic BS necessary to obtain that piece of paper DOES.

on its own, i agree, a Bachelor's degree is worthless, it's a great starting point though if you've got a clear focus and are able to lay out a worthwhile path to follow.

as for the comment about sticking to an English major if you have no other plans... what is that actually worth on its own? how is it not just another 4 years of high school? it's like the guy i work with who has a degree in French and Spanish who now works in a call center and uses absolutely none of that education. i asked him once if he had a plan to do something more with his degree like maybe a Master's in Communication (international translator would be a pretty kickass career i think) or maybe a Master's in Education and be one of the highly qualified teachers on the higher end of the payscale (in Canada teachers are, or at least, used to be, paid based on their overall level of education).

YES YES YES ABSOLUTELY YES!

it's not until you decide 'oh, geez! i should have gone to college', but rather, alright enough of this cubicle hell, i'm going to do this instead. get an actual honest idea of what working for a living is like and you'll find that your interests and world views will change. plus you'll also be able to qualify as a 'mature' student. also, don't start a family if you plan on going back within the next few years. i dropped out of college the first time, went back to a lovely part time grocery store job on the ass end of nowhere before going back (twice) and decimating class after class once i had a clear focus of what i wanted to do (including 8 perfect grades during that 2nd program).

i run into so MANY people (and was one myself years ago) who act like because they have that fancy piece of paper and nice grades that they're somehow entitled to a better station in life. that's not the case at all anymore, at least not for the vast majority of people. like they'll somehow never have to change jobs once they land that first one with their degree and their genius will be recognized and they'll just be auto-promoted to a job specifically tailored just for them. those 8 hundreds i got? - padding from my dept. head to insure himself into a cushy job out of school based on our performance (it blew up in his face).

i think colleges and universities are directly responsible for this type of propaganda being accepted as common knowledge. likely why there's an obscene demand for plumbers and other people who are willing to touch actual sh1t. also i've never worked in a call center that paid less than $10 an hour and required more than a high school education, hardly knee wrecking or back breaking. sure it might suck for 8 hours a day but that still leaves 16 for yourself.


also, even though i use personal examples nothing of this discussion is meant to be taken personally by anyone. no one should drop out of school based on a freaking thread on the internet. no one is attacking anyone's choices, simply pointing out varying perspectives that most people don't notice until they're well out of the doors of Academia.

and everything Pete said is gold.

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