Is Meat Really Murder?

hip hop bunny hop · 05-17-2010, 02:13 PM

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It sounds like you feel we should care only about those beings who are "self-aware." How are you defining "self-aware," hip hop bunny hop?

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Also, I'd like to point out that a young human baby, say a 1-month-old, does not appear more self-aware than adult livestock animals...and actually less so in some ways. People used to think very young human babies couldn't experience pain, since little babies' brains are still rewiring quite a bit and babies don't *appear* to be very aware of what's going on. Some people seem to have similar beliefs (which I feel are false) about non-human animals such as cows, pigs, chickens, fish, etc.

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I feel that how an animal dies, whether peacefully in a field or chased down and ripped apart by a predator, makes a big difference to an animal like a rabbit! I am curious why you think the type of death would *not* make a difference. It sounds like you feel rabbits are unfeeling machines.

To be brief, I'd say a creature is "self-aware" when that creature has the capacity to exercise choice in a manner which goes beyond pavlovian conditioning. We can use the mirror test as the basic method for determining this capacity, if you like.

Yes, human babies aren't self aware until they are roughly 2 years old. Regarding the notion that babies can't feel pain; no, quite the opposite - the reason we don't retain memories from our extreme youth is because the prevalence of extreme pain....

In this aspect, babies and rabbits are similar; death makes no difference to the rabbit or infant because they lack the capacity to think; they've no concept of death or mortality. To the extent that they can feel pleasure and pain; these are mere sensory inputs, an evolutionary advantage.

The nature of the sensory inputs is really irrelevant; what the purpose of the inputs are is the important thing. The effect is the creatures are, to paraphrase what Calvin (the child friend of Hobbes) once said, "...driven by the inscrutable exhortations of the soul". There is no choice, no barter or bargain. Pain & pleasure, for these beings, exists only to whip and contort the being so that crass genetic drives can be momentarily satisfied.

...however, after a point, the rabbit and the infant diverge; the infant becomes self aware, begins to think. This allows the child to conceptualize death.... something our poor friend, the rabbit, is not capable of.