VEGANGELICA

Well put, mojo. I strongly dislike the idea that animals were "made for us."

I sometimes hear people say how much they appreciate that some animal sacrificed its life for humans to eat. Yet the animal didn't "give" or "sacrifice" its life for people to eat it. The humans TOOK the animal's life, and just want to make themselves feel justified in doing so.

I disagree with your belief that being vegetarian doesn't make the "slightest difference." The whole field of economics is based on the knowledge that each person contributes demand, affecting the market.

The effect may be slight when I don't eat meat, but there is an effect. You can see this cumulative effect of people eating vegetarian foods when you go to restaurants. Many offer vegetarian options now to cater to people avoiding animal products. Also, the effect of consumers refusing to buy products produced in sweat shops and by child labor makes a difference, too.

It sounds as if you feel you can have no impact at all on the world, anticipation. Is this a way for you to rationalize doing whatever you want without considering the consequences?

It is very integral for me, that's for sure.

One question I think about as a vegan is this: let's say an animal, a calf, is going to be killed by a lion--does it make any difference to the calf if its life is ended by the lion or by a human? Probably not. So then couldn't this be used to justify humans killing cows?

I'd answer no, it doesn't justify humans killing cows, because (1) humans can choose not to kill them, and (2) humans don't need to kill animals to survive and be healthy (except in extreme environments). I'm not saying that non-human animals can't make choices. They can. But carnivores can't choose to not eat meat if they hope to survive.

A related thought experiment is this one. Let's say a human is near death. Does it really make much difference to the human if she dies naturally on that day, or if I murder her humanely and eat her? It makes a difference to me because I feel it is wrong for me to make this choice for her life, ending it against her will.

You could be vegan, skaltezon. I'm still alive! It is very possible to be vegan and healthy. I was the first vegan I knew personally, so I learned everything from books. Now the internet is a great resource for information about how to be a healthy vegan and how to avoid products made from animals.

Your question reminds me of the popular children's movie "Madagascar," which has as its main theme the topic of carnivory vs. vegetarianism and friendship.

In the movie, a zoo lion and zebra are best friends, but when they get stuck on an island the lion starts to revert to his inborn carnivorous desires as he gets hungrier and hungrier. He starts to see all the other animals as steaks and wakes up at night horrified to find himself licking his zebra friend. It's a funny movie...and thought-provoking!

The movie has some great ironic shots of the brutality of nature, such as when the zoo animals try to save a chick from a hawk by picking up the chick and placing it in a pond...only to have the chick swallowed up by a giant crocodile rising up from underneath it, like the shark does in the movie Jaws.

I feel the question people face, if they wish to, is whether they want to contribute to the brutality which is part of nature, or whether they want to try to reduce it by avoiding being brutal themselves. I see vegetarianism as one easy and healthy way to reduce the brutality humans cause in the world. It isn't the only way, but it is one good way.

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MoonlitSunshine

From what I remember of that movie, doesn't the lion just go on a fish diet? ain't very fair on fish :P

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RVCA

I find vegetarians a bit wishy-washy myself. From what modern science can determine, no other species on the planet is capable of metacognition, or thinking about thinking. Sure, animals feel pain and perhaps other more complex emotions, but where does a vegetarian draw the line? It's not okay to eat cows, chickens, and pigs because it's "unethical". Is it okay for primitive African tribes to eat insects as a source of nutrition? Surely they're animals as well, and on a psychologically evolutionary scale, they're on the same playing field as the aforementioned meats. Is it okay to exterminate ants because they're invading your home? Aren't they animals as well?

If you think it's wrong to eat cows but okay to eat insects and kill ants, you need to describe to me how and where you made that distinction.

One might ever go as far to argue that because animals like cows are bred exclusively for our consumption, it's even less ethical to consume insects that were born of their own accord, so to speak.

skaltezon

Have you ever taken care of a pet or farm animals?


True. The fish-animals get shortchanged and nobody complains. I don't think a lion can survive without eating some form of animal flesh. But evidently humans can.


I'd never presume to tell primitive African tribes whether they should eat insects. I kill flies and mosquitos with an odd mixture of ferocity and regret, but nearly everything else gets a pass.

Raising domesticated animals for slaughter is a betrayal when you think about it. At least a deer or a fish has the instincts and the opportunity to get away.

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ThePhanastasio

I don't tell others what they can / cannot eat, and would never dream of doing so. I just don't eat meat personally for my own reasons, and I can understand that others don't share those particular viewpoints.

Additionally, I don't kill bugs at all. I catch and release any and all bugs which come into my home, including a recent (very careful) catch and release of a brown recluse spider. I wasn't about to allow it to continue living in my bedroom for obvious reasons, but I didn't see that it had done anything wrong aside from happening to make its web in an inconvenient location. I carefully got it on a piece of paper and then into a jar before releasing it into the abandoned shed near my house.

Really, I don't care if people eat meat, or if they eat it in front of me. I do think it's somewhat douchey when people have been like, "Sara, check it - I'm eating this delicious cow, mmm...." or try to hold meat up to my face (guy friends apparently think that's funny sometimes) but it's whatever. The only time I've ever really had a problem with people doing something I don't agree with in that respect in front of me is when people seek out bugs to kill in my presence for no good reason. Particularly if they're not even especially afraid of said bug and are just like, "Oh, is that a beetle?" *steps on beetle*. That's kind of bothersome.

skaltezon

Bravo. Lucky thing you recognized it.

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RVCA

Sorry, I used the wrong phrasing. So, Sara (that's your name iirc), you'd obviously never eat an insect. But skaltezon, assume that insects are a delicacy and they taste amazing. Being a vegetarian, would you eat them?

Guybrush

That would annoy me too. Not the fact that the beetle dies so much, but the lack of respect for you and the life of the beetle. I don't necessarily think of the killing of animals as immoral in itself, but I think animals should be treated with respect and keeping animals for meat and other things should be seen as a trade. We get meat and other products from animals, it's only fair they get something back, f.ex a happy life with minimal suffering.

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Arya Stark

I almost agree with this.
I don't give a **** if people eat meat in front of me but if they put it in my face, I think it's annoying. But normally, if people put something in my face like that, I think it's rude nonetheless.

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skaltezon

I'm not a vegetarian. But I wouldn't eat insects just for the amazing taste.

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