Freebase Dali

So just because we were intelligent enough to fabricate a basic human standard and all the other animals weren't, we should deny our same basic needs just because we can?

That doesn't make much sense to me in the grand scheme of things.

If life was truly and objectively valuable, then our 'lesser' animals wouldn't be eating meat either, by virtue of whatever higher force deemed us all valuable to begin with.

__________________

bungalow

Well, yes. Humans do not need to eat meat to survive--millions of living vegans attest to that. And the primary human motivation for eating meat is not need--in most cases it is convenience and pleasure. Our basic needs are not the same as all other animals. Humans have the ability to farm, to store and preserve food. These are luxuries that other animals--who do need to eat meet--do not have. And that moral standards were "fabricated" by humans does not mean they are superfluous or not worth adhering to. Why should we act morally at all if there is personal gain in acting immorally?

I don't understand this point, perhaps you could clarify? As for life being 'objectively' valuable: all living things wish to sustain themselves and to be free of suffering. Because I, as a human, am intelligent enough to understand that it should also therefore be my duty to respect it.

CAPTAIN CAVEMAN

I pretty much agree with this. I was playing devil's advocate with my previous one.

Ultimately I doubt that I will ever change my meat-eating behaviour. Ideally humans would either have a more natural system of farming and/or hunt. That won't happen because there are too many people, which is a problem all in itself.

For most animals the reproductive act is essentially rape. Clearly we shouldn't act the way we do just because they do as well.

Astronomer

I don't believe in not eating meat. Heaps of other carnivorous and omnivorous animals kill other animals for meat and I have no real problem with this - it is all a part of life, nature, and the food chain.

What I do have a problem with is the way us humans farm our meat. Most of the time it is very cruel, inhumane, and unfriendly towards the environment. Many animals are kept in horrifying conditions and endure years of torture. I buy organic meat - not only does it taste better but it is farmed in a natural environment. I actually lived in country Australia for a while and was very pleased at the state of many of our meat farms - the animals were kept in beautiful outdoor paddocks and had loads of room and freedom and green grass to eat. I wish other farmers around the world would be less money hungry and more caring towards our environment and the other inhabitants of it.

I also only ever eat local produce because it means less transportation and less petrol being used, etcetera. It's always a little dearer to buy organic and local produce but it doesn't really bother me.

Personally, I don't eat a lot of meat (unless it is organic) due to the treatment of animals in the meat industry and also the implications on the environment (farming meat often means using a lot of water and other resources). And also because I'm not really a meat person. But I have nothing against eating meat and if a person loves eating meat I don't see anything wrong with it. I just think in many parts of the world the way in which meat is harvested is very cruel and should be rethought.

Also, saying that we should or shouldn't do something because that's what "other meat-eating animals do" is silly. We are humans, and we have the intelligence and the resources to look after our fellow species and ensure that they don't suffer nor have a low quality of life - since we are able to do this, we should think about the way we treat other species because we have the intelligence to. If you get what I mean... kind-of hard to explain!

It's like people who say, "Why help that beached whale? It's just an act of nature." We should help it because we can.

__________________

Freebase Dali

I understand where you're coming from, and I agree to an extent. I just mean that you're going to be farming whatever you eat if you're not relying on industry. And with the amount of people we have in this world, at this present time, with this present state of being... not many would be able to survive on their own if all the sudden meat and vegetables were no longer hand-packaged for them in grocery stores, grown on mass farms, and sold to the consumer.
Where do you honestly think you'll be able to obtain a means to survive if you couldn't buy it, or at least obtain a means to produce your own? I'm sure you'd trespass many times on someone else's property before you even got close.

The thing is, we're currently at a point where someone owns everything and when it comes down to survival, we really have no other choice but to be slaves to a market. Yea, you can personally decide to not eat meat from that market, but you're ultimately still serving the market with your choice regardless. And the market is what drives both what you stand for and what you stand against. So it's almost a catch-22.
And there's nothing you can do about that.
So in our reality, the human-being one, we're still just as restricted as an animal's environment (individually) because there's not much we can do about our situation except do what allows us to survive.
That's what it comes down to.

I agree that we could better use our talents and strengths to provide for ourselves in more humane way, but I personally don't believe that just because we're capable of feeling sorry for something that we should be ruled by those emotions alone.
The only thing that matters is the matter of survival. And to do that, we must intelligently do things in a way that benefits both us and our environment and the things living in it. Simply expecting the entire world to stop eating meat altogether is only going to shift the extreme from one end to the other, regardless of what it is.

__________________

Freebase Dali

Touche'.

But we still have to reproduce.

__________________

noise

the act of reproduction is far older than the idea of rape.

but more to the point, humans evolved as omnivores. i doubt a single homo habilis ever passed up a juicy slab of fire-roasted auroch while citing some whimsical complaint about the righteousness of not eating meat.

who are we to pass judgment upon the world as it existed long before we came along?

__________________
my flac collection

MAStudent

I'll murder a cow or a chicken in a heart beat, cut a chunk right off the side, and throw it on the barbecue

The Fascinating Turnip

My point, as others have said, is that whether or not you decide to be a vegetarian should be a strictly personal decision. It's a matter of taste and principle. You shouldn't force your tastes or principles upon others, and some vegetarians do that. I haven't seen anyone of that persuasion here, and i'm glad.
If I were ever to turn into a vegetarian, it'd be strictly because of the guilt. If i stop eating meat it won't mean that the meat industry is going to cease animal cruelty, but at least I won't be a part of that. Human beings have always eaten meat, and I see no harm in doing so, but genetic manipulation of chicken, for example, bothers me quite a bit. And there are already chicken who are born without any feathers.
I'm sure animals wouldn't have such compassion if they were hungry and we were at the bottom of the food chain, though, we can tell ourselves that if we wish some comfort, but they really couldn't manipulate us genetically and turn our lives into a pointless hell, they don't have that much of an unfair advantage.
To sum this mess up: I really wouldn't mind eating meat at all if I thought the whole meat farming process wasn't so "unfair". A matter of honour? Perhaps. We are animals, animals eat each other, it's the way of life. If you choose not to, that's fine.

Sansa Stark

OM NOM NOM