Is Meat Really Murder?

FETCHER. · 05-18-2010, 02:20 PM

I definitely agree with you all round.

~~hissundaygirl09.~~ · 05-19-2010, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by james44754

And getting Leid will help this?

yes most of the time.. its better than getting high

~~James~~ · 05-19-2010, 12:36 PM

Aye I know getting Leid is the best solution

FETCHER. · 05-19-2010, 03:15 PM

This "Leid" thing is getting old

.

~~James~~ · 05-19-2010, 03:17 PM

She has still not noticed though.

Guybrush · 05-19-2010, 05:34 PM

No other meat eaters are gonna answer my questions?

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

Questions : Some nations and cultures still hunt whales. If you visited one of these cultures or nations, would you eat minke whale? Or would you eat an endangered whale species like finwhale? Is there any okay tasting meat you wouldn't eat if it was served to you?

~~hissundaygirl09.~~ · 05-20-2010, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by james44754

Aye I know getting Leid is the best solution

of course it is

VEGANGELICA · 05-20-2010, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hip hop bunny hop

To be brief, I'd say a creature is "self-aware" when that creature has the capacity to exercise choice in a manner which goes beyond pavlovian conditioning. We can use the mirror test as the basic method for determining this capacity, if you like.

Yes, human babies aren't self aware until they are roughly 2 years old. Regarding the notion that babies can't feel pain; no, quite the opposite - the reason we don't retain memories from our extreme youth is because the prevalence of extreme pain....

In this aspect, babies and rabbits are similar; death makes no difference to the rabbit or infant because they lack the capacity to think; they've no concept of death or mortality. To the extent that they can feel pleasure and pain; these are mere sensory inputs, an evolutionary advantage.

...however, after a point, the rabbit and the infant diverge; the infant becomes self aware, begins to think. This allows the child to conceptualize death.... something our poor friend, the rabbit, is not capable of.

Yes, hip hop, human babies *can* and *do* feel pain, even though babies under 18 months fail the self-awareness "mirror" test. So, human babies are like many other animals in this regard. This was my point! If you feel it is wrong to kill human babies, who feel pain and pleasure without as much awareness of time and identity as we have, then why don't you feel it is wrong to kill other animals who are feeling pain and pleasure in a similar fashion as human babies?

You feel animals like rabbits can be killed without concern because, you claim, they "don't think" and lack the "capacity to exercise choice in a manner which goes beyond Pavlovian conditioning." Upon what evidence do your base your assumption that rabbits can't think and can't make choices? All brains make "choices."

Also, note that responding to Pavlovian classical conditioning does not mean an animal lacks self-awarenes and consciousnous during conditioning. One model for how classical conditioning works is that this type of learning includes a conscious component. Even rats passed a test set up to determine if they are consciously reacting to stimuli. Classical conditioning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I feel a being's ability to enjoy life and to suffer is the most important reason for not killing and eating it. However, since you feel a high degree of self-awareness is required for an organism to warrant our compassion, let's consider the mirror test for self-awareness. Failing to pass the mirror test does not mean that an animal lacks a high degree of self-awareness. For example, animals who don't rely on sight as their most important sense may fail the mirror test yet still have highly developed cognitive awareness.

Dogs and cats and baby humans all fail the mirror test. I feel this is not a reason to allow them to be fair game for meat-eaters. I think these and many other animals do have consciousness, an ability to make choices, and an the ability to feel. Whether or not an animal understands death shouldn't determine whether we eat her. Many humans believe in an "afterlife" and thus, I feel, don't understand death...but I won't eat them just because they think their death isn't really death.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

Questions: Some nations and cultures still hunt whales. If you visited one of these cultures or nations, would you eat minke whale? Or would you eat an endangered whale species like finwhale? Is there any okay tasting meat you wouldn't eat if it was served to you?

Since I ate animals for 17 years, I can give you the answer I would have given then, Tore. My answer is NO. I would not eat whales...or dolphins either. My reasons:

(1) Hunting Cetaceans appears to cause them great pain. For example, penthrite grenade harpoons do not lead to instantaneous death but often a long and lingering one. Whales on the Net - Norwegian Whale Killing Methods

(2) Whales and dolphins appear to be very intelligent, feeling creatures, and so to kill them and end their lives is a destructiveness that saddens me greatly. Trained dolphins, for example, can learn a command to work as a pair and create their own, unique jump that they perform simultaneously. The pair of dolphins will swim underwater, then leap in tandem from the water and do identical twists and turns in the air, which they agreed on somehow underwater. For people to kill such wonderful, creative beings to turn them into table snacks is very troubling to me. It is as if these humans lack empathy and feel no one else's experience of life has value and meaning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by james44754

And getting Leid will help this?

Getting "Leid" wouldn't cause me to chill out and accept meat-eating, James. I assume by "Leid" we mean what happens when you go to Hawaii and friendly people there welcome you by putting a garland of flowers, or "lei," around your neck?

One reason I wouldn't relax after getting Leid, perhaps by this nice couple below, is that I'd be fearing this welcome would be followed by a Hawaiian Luau pig roast, where people turn the death of a pig into a reason for jubilation, treating her or his death as a joke by placing sun glasses on the cadaver to cover the eyes that once saw and experienced.

~~James~~ · 05-20-2010, 05:27 PM

^Exactly i've never been Leid and was curios as to how it would help.

VEGANGELICA · 05-20-2010, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by james44754

^Exactly i've never been Leid and was curios as to how it would help.

Perhaps the perfume of the lei flowers makes one blissfully unaware of ethical consequences of actions, since one's senses are so overwhelmed by the fragrance?

I think I have been Leid once. It happened in Florida. I was very young. It didn't have any effect on what I ate, as far as I can remember.

05-19-2010, 12:36 PM	#513 (permalink)
~~James~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Scotland Posts: 4,483	Aye I know getting Leid is the best solution

05-19-2010, 03:17 PM	#515 (permalink)
~~James~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Scotland Posts: 4,483	She has still not noticed though.

05-20-2010, 05:27 PM	#519 (permalink)
~~James~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Scotland Posts: 4,483	^Exactly i've never been Leid and was curios as to how it would help.