Is Meat Really Murder?

VEGANGELICA · 05-11-2010, 09:15 AM

No no no no no!

Please don't close this thread! This is a great thread! It's lots of fun...for me, at least.

Also, AwwSugar and I still haven't had our ovo-lactovegetarian/vegan "fight"....yet.

I agree with AwwSugar that this thread serves a purpose...the sharing of people's real feelings on a contentious topic. I'm not offended by the direction the debates take, especially since I have already experienced quite frequently in non-internet life what we sometimes see here as people's satisfied ignorance, disdain, and a desire to show their feelings by acting out (pretending to want to hurt animals).

Quote:

Originally Posted by mojopinuk

I think it should stay if there are people here actually discussing and are interested in it but if it continues to be derailed by trolling, ignorance, insults and general stupidity then its not worth the hassle. I think it should either stay on topic and produce some intelligent discussion, or at least as intelligent as public forums go, or go the journey.

Since people have very different ethical views and background knowledge about eating animals, I don't expect the conversation to avoid sometimes dealing with questions for which (I think) the answers should be obvious, mojo.

For example, in this thread a vegan said that eating meat isn't "natural" and a meat-eater said "meat is essential." These are (incorrect) viewpoints common to both "camps," and so I think this thread is a good place for people to state what they believe so that others can point out errors or offer alternative viewpoints.

So, please don't close the thread due to people's ignorance! And frankly, "sticks and stones and knives and chains and saws can break animals' bones, but words can never hurt them."

So here's a question for those of you who eat meat: given that meat is not a physiological necessity...and so you are supporting people killing animals unnecessarily...does it make a difference to you whether people kill the animal for fun sport (bullfighting, sport fishing, songbird target practice) vs. for fun food (tasty pizza toppings, mouth-watering burgers, tender fish)?

If you are willing for animals to suffer to allow you to eat them (when you don't need to), shouldn't you also be willing for animals to suffer to provide humans with fun in other ways (say, killing animals to get "revenge" on vegans)? The animal ends up dead either way, so why do people's motivations for killing the animal matter?

I've seen people pick up fish and bury them alive for fun, and no animal *likes* to asphyxiate. Is this any worse or better than fishing with the intent of eating the animal? Livestock animals suffer all the time due to human choices. Is this fundamentally any different than people intentionally causing animals to suffer for fun?

Guybrush · 05-12-2010, 04:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VEGANGELICA

So here's a question for those of you who eat meat: given that meat is not a physiological necessity...and so you are supporting people killing animals unnecessarily...does it make a difference to you whether people kill the animal for fun sport (bullfighting, sport fishing, songbird target practice) vs. for fun food (tasty pizza toppings, mouth-watering burgers, tender fish)?

If you are willing for animals to suffer to allow you to eat them (when you don't need to), shouldn't you also be willing for animals to suffer to provide humans with fun in other ways (say, killing animals to get "revenge" on vegans)? The animal ends up dead either way, so why do people's motivations for killing the animal matter?

I've seen people pick up fish and bury them alive for fun, and no animal *likes* to asphyxiate. Is this any worse or better than fishing with the intent of eating the animal? Livestock animals suffer all the time due to human choices. Is this fundamentally any different than people intentionally causing animals to suffer for fun?

First, I should say I don't like mistreatment of animals in any shape and I do try to be an aware consumer! Still, as a meat eater, of course I do accept mistreatment of animals in order to put food on my plate. It would be naive to deny it.

I think what I dislike the most with mistreatment for fun or entertainment is it's not the sort of thing I think should be fun. The way I see it, only emotionally dysfunctional losers laugh at torture and only people with an utter lack of respect for life will entertain themselves by mistreating animals. It's not exactly the trademark of a winning personality and a healthy mind, but rather indicates douchebagism and mental health problems .. imo

Mistreatment as a "side effect" of animals being used for food is something I find a lot more tolerable. The goal is not to cause pain, but to get some kind of animal food product. Killing animals for food doesn't mean you're a heartless psychopath.

Arya Stark · 05-11-2010, 07:47 AM

Vegetarians are so stupid.
I'm going to torture all of the ants I find in spite of them.
Bitches.
I hate all of you.

=D Like that, Jojooo? <3

The Fascinating Turnip · 05-11-2010, 08:25 AM

I actually think it's high time this one got closed.
As much as I like to see a thread I started active, whenever I check it for progress, I just see people discussing the same old points again, and heated arguments starting all over.
I suppose the question itself was answered quite early on, though it was more of a nifty title than anything else; but there was a time in which I recall tore and VEGANGELICA, for example, actually providing interesting information and discussing the amiably, and that suited the purpose of the thread.
Oh well, my two cents, I suppose.

Mojo · 05-11-2010, 09:02 AM

A bit like that Sugar. :-P

Well if the likes of Paloma, Sugar, Vegangelica etc, i.e the more frequent contributers in this thread want it open then it stays for now but any more of this kind of shit and its gone.

Arya Stark · 05-11-2010, 09:03 AM

I dunno, this thread really interests me.
And there aren't a lot of threads I can relate to like I can with this one.
I don't think it should be closed because of some annoying people.
Erica has the strongest views of all of us, and it doesn't even annoy her.

Mojo · 05-11-2010, 09:13 AM

Well thats why im leaving it. But its a thread that constantly needs modding. If it gets back on topic and stays that way then fine but I can see a mod losing their patience with this one somewhere down the line.

Arya Stark · 05-11-2010, 09:14 AM

Well that's why you're here. <3

Arya Stark · 05-11-2010, 09:18 AM

That's fine, Erica.
You're stupid because you're a vegan.
I'm going to shove eggs in your face.

VEGANGELICA · 05-11-2010, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AwwSugar

That's fine, Erica.
You're stupid because you're a vegan.
I'm going to shove eggs in your face.

You didn't consider my question from the previous post, egg-breath. (Switch "egg" or "dairy" for meat): "Given that meat is not a physiological necessity...and so you are supporting people killing animals unnecessarily...does it make a difference to you whether people kill the animal for fun sport (bullfighting, sport fishing, songbird target practice) vs. for fun food (tasty pizza toppings, mouth-watering burgers, tender fish)?"

Stay on topic please, if you CAN.

GAA! I don't want to fake argue with you, Sugar! (I just can't do it long, can I!

. I was lacto-ovo vegetarian for many years, and I know some of the reasons going vegan can be difficult or a concern. It took me several years to switch to a vegan diet even after I realized that people kill the millions of male chicks who are the brothers of the egg-laying hens. Even after I knew that veal calves are not allowed contact with each other and then are killed, just so I could enjoy ice cream.

But seriously, Sugar, have you considered veganism, and why or why not? Do you look at it in this way: ovo-lacto vegetarianism doesn't directly involve killing the animals at that moment, although, of course, people eventually kill the egg-laying hens and cows?

05-11-2010, 09:02 AM	#5 (permalink)
Mojo Melancholia Eternally Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: England Posts: 5,018	A bit like that Sugar. :-P Well if the likes of Paloma, Sugar, Vegangelica etc, i.e the more frequent contributers in this thread want it open then it stays for now but any more of this kind of shit and its gone. __________________ Last.FM \| Echoes and Dust

05-11-2010, 09:13 AM	#7 (permalink)
Mojo Melancholia Eternally Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: England Posts: 5,018	Well thats why im leaving it. But its a thread that constantly needs modding. If it gets back on topic and stays that way then fine but I can see a mod losing their patience with this one somewhere down the line. __________________ Last.FM \| Echoes and Dust

05-11-2010, 08:25 AM	#4 (permalink)
The Fascinating Turnip Moper Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 510	I actually think it's high time this one got closed. As much as I like to see a thread I started active, whenever I check it for progress, I just see people discussing the same old points again, and heated arguments starting all over. I suppose the question itself was answered quite early on, though it was more of a nifty title than anything else; but there was a time in which I recall tore and VEGANGELICA, for example, actually providing interesting information and discussing the amiably, and that suited the purpose of the thread. Oh well, my two cents, I suppose.