NumberNineDream

Well I wasn't the one being condescending.
I did make the choice less then 2 months ago, so I still don't call myself a vegetarian.
I just noticed that saying you're a vegetarian triggers the same reaction as saying you're an Atheist...

__________________

lucifer_sam

In that most vegetarians consider themselves in some way superior to meat-eating people?

Yep.

__________________
first.am

Guybrush

Few things get on people's nerves as much as moral superiority

__________________
Something Completely Different

NumberNineDream

Well I strangely still feel that Vegetarians are arrogant.

__________________

VEGANGELICA

Anticipation, you asked for a reason not to eat meat, which I gave: a health reason. This does not mean there aren't *other* causes of poor health.

The health studies I listed are important because they allow interested people to learn about the impact of their food choices on their risk of cancer. Since eating 2 servings of red meat vs. 5 servings a week makes a health difference, some people would like to know this. Eating no red meat is even better, and I advise people to avoid processed meats entirely for health reasons (bacon, hot dogs, sausage, etc.). Free range meats will still contain cholesterol and saturated fats.

Certainly there are many ways in which we can improve our health besides what we eat. You didn't ask this question, however. If you had, I would have mentioned the importance of exercise. I agree with you completely that an active lifestyle is *very* important to good health and longevity. For example, studies of children have shown that exercise has a much greater impact on their bone health than how much dairy they eat.

I am concerned about humanity's impact on the planet, including the impact of industrial chemical pollution. Since you asked about meat-eating and not the impact of industrial waste produced during creation of non-necessities, I didn't address this issue in my answer. You are very right that there are many ways people harm the environment...and there are many ways we can help reduce harm to the environment. Reducing or eliminating the consumption of animals is one of them.

Whether my notions of the inherent value of all life are antiquated or not is a matter of opinion, but based on my observations of trends in human philosophies I would say that the notion of the inherent value of life is quite a *new* notion. The anthropocentric view of life is fairly old. Most people who eat animals, I think, view humans as the most important species on planet, which exists to serve human needs and desires, according to the anthropocentric view.

I don't want you to feel guilty for eating animals, anticipation. I want you and other people to stop eating animals and their eggs and fluids! So you stand corrected.

I know that feeling guilty about something isn't a healthy or happy emotion and I don't want to inflict that on you. I do wish, though, that rather than dismissing the information I offered you, you would consider it more carefully than I think you are doing. Public health officials have a very hard time reaching people, trying to give them up-to-date nutrition information, because people generally don't want to hear, which is too bad.

I agree, Tore, that diets with animals products can be healthful, yet so too can vegetarian diets. Both should be well-planned. A vegan diet without vitamin-B12 supplementation would lead to death.

Hunter-gatherers *were* much healthier than early agricultural people, who suffered from lack of variety in the diet because they ate primarily wheat (in Eurasia) with little else. However, now we know what to eat to stay healthy as a vegetarian, and I have a wide variety of foods to select among to stay very healthy. I'd get ill if I just ate potato chips and bananas. It would be vegan, but not healthful!

Avoiding simple sugars is a good idea--I agree with you. Whole-grain breads are very healthful...so I wouldn't advise people staying away from whole grain products. An aside: sometimes I do eat 5 cookies in a row. Chocolate. With vegan cream filling. Yummmmmmmmm. Then my head starts to hurt a little...so I try not to do that.

Tore, I don't find I have to work hard at all to stay healthy as a vegan. I don't plan my meals; I don't weigh anything. Actually, vegan foods have some advantages in terms of preparation and work. You can leave foods out of the frig without worrying about them spoiling quickly, which isn't the case with dairy and meats. You have fewer risks of contamination with bacteria; no worries about which cutting board you are using. And your main protein source (dried beans and grains) can be stored at room temperature for months. Simple!

Lucifer-sam, I forgot to quote what you said, but my reply is that I have never found vegetarians to be condescending or feel they are morally better than meat-eaters...at least not the ones I know. They usually seem like very thoughtful people who question what their culture has taught them. They're nice!

However, it is true that I think I would treat a pig more ethically than you would, because I think killing and eating someone who likes to live isn't kind. Sometimes I do feel anger and shock and horror at what I see meat-eaters doing and supporting. I *am* at ground zero for animal agriculture here in Iowa--I know all too well what goes on. I don't feel it is condescending to point out that people ignore animal suffering.

__________________

lucifer_sam

You should have taken the time to do it, you might have realized I didn't say it.

__________________
first.am

VEGANGELICA

Yes, I reread what you wrote and see you said that most vegetarians feel they are superior to non-vegetarians. Here's my revised reply (which I edited as you were posting your message):

Lucifer-sam, I forgot to quote what you said, but my reply is that I have never found vegetarians to be condescending or feel they are morally better than meat-eaters...at least not the ones I know. They usually seem like very thoughtful people who question what their culture has taught them. They're nice!

However, it is true that I think I would treat a pig more ethically than you would, because I think killing and eating someone who likes to live isn't kind. Sometimes I do feel anger and shock and horror at what I see meat-eaters doing and supporting. I *am* at ground zero for animal agriculture here in Iowa--I know all too well what goes on. I don't feel it is condescending to point out that people ignore animal suffering.

__________________

music_phantom13

I'm not sure if that's the case, or if it's more that people don't care. Quite honestly, I smoke, drink in excess, put a lot of lethal substances in my body, and eat red meats and processed meats all the time. Do I know that all of these things are working on killing me? Hell yes I do. Do I care? Not in the least to be honest, I enjoy living and when it ends it ends. I imagine that's more like what most people's view is. They hear the information being given to them, just don't care.

EDIT: And the condescending thing is a bit complicated. Wouldn't everyone here say the Holocaust was wrong? That's basically the conditions the animals live in. I'm not taking sides with Vegan here, but I understand where she and vegetarians in general are coming from with that.

pourmeanother

Vegangelica- I never thought I would say this, but... I need your infinite wisdom on veganism/vegetarianism.

That's not my usual sarcasm either... I'm cutting out meat for an undetermined period of time right around Easter, and could use some advice on meal ideas, alternative sources of protein (I already eat a lot of almonds), and anything else.

I- gulp- would love for you to write a novel on the subject (if it's already covered here, feel free to tell me to read through- 22 pages was a lot to read before asking though0.

__________________
Life is just blah, blah, blah
You hope for blah
And sometimes you find it, but mostly it's blah
And waiting for blah
And hoping you were right about the blahs you made
And then, just when you think you've got the whole blah'd damn thing figured out
And you're surrounded by the ones you blah
Death shows up... anddd blah, blah, blah.

VEGANGELICA

Oh, phantom, you are right: there is a difference between not wanting to hear about health risks associated with various diets, and listening but not caring. I don't know how many people don't want to admit the harm caused by red meats and processed meats, and how many like you acknowledge it but accept the risks/don't care.

Hmm, your situation is interesting and I appreciate your honesty about it. I enjoy living, too, and I know that when it ends it ends (and since I'm an atheist I really think it ends)...but because I love living so much I'm trying to extend my life longer (and decrease the chance of painful death by cancer) by avoiding "sacrilege in the temple" (the body).

About the Holocaust and Animal Agriculture:

I see the Holocaust and animal agriculture as having similarities as well as major differences. I know a lot about the Holocaust, having read books by survivors and also historical books describing how centuries of prejudice against and victimization of Jewish people led eventually to many Germans believing Jewish people were a subhuman genetic "race" who needed to be exterminated for the betterment of humanity as a whole.

In both the Holocaust and animal agriculture, the dominant power (the dominant humans) view a group of living beings as an underclass whose death will serve the dominant group.

The goal in the Holocaust was the intentional killing/torture of Jewish people (and other groups considered "undesirable") to benefit those in power, since the Germans in power held the deluded belief that Jewish people were the cause of social problems and as "subhumans" threatened the genetic purity of the fake racial "Aryan" group.

The goal in animal agriculture is to care for young animals in a way that causes many (but not all) to survive long enough to be killed to be eaten...and the fact that some are intentionally killed early on, or die in transport, is accepted because it reduces the costs, benefitting those in power.

Nazis felt Jewish people's experience of life had no value. The Nazis felt killing Jewish people was a noble cause (a Godly cause). Animal livestock producers similarly feel that the experiences of cows, pigs, and other sentient "subhuman" beings have little value, and so feel no pang of guilt when ending these animals' experience of life. I think many in animal agriculture seem to feel they are following God's commandments by raising animals to eat them.

However, phantom, the brutality against humans in the Holocaust was much, much, much greater than brutality against most livestock animals...except that many livestock animals' needs and suffering are ignored during their lives and when slaughtered, and sometimes they are intentionally tortured and demeaned...beaten, bludgeoned, raped, confined until they go crazy, deprived of light and food (egg-laying hens), and allowed to suffer cancers and sores untreated, since as long as the animals make it to slaughter-weight without dying, the goal of the producers has been met: making money.

Holocaust survivors recall seeing plump, fattened, healthy pigs coming off the livestock cars exactly like the cars in which they, the humans, were themselves penned, starving, diseased, with no room to lie down and no food or water for days. People in animal agriculture generally try to keep most of their animals healthy enough to make a profit. The Nazis intentionally tried to deprive and degrade their victims to cause them to die. There was no effort to keep Jewish people alive; the whole goal was to kill them off from the face of the earth forever.

__________________