kaleidoscope..

steak

Guybrush

I don't know any vegetarians from Norway because it's not really popular here. In general, people think of the meat industry as a relatively clean business and all cows and pigs get so and so much time out in the fields by law, etc. A lot of the areas used for grazing are rocky slopes not suitable for growing things other than grass too, so that in part invalidates the "but what if we grew corn instead?" argument.

I do know vegetarians from other european countries like Finland, Netherlands and Germany, though. Most of those have and will eat animals that have been hunted. The idea is they think it's the industry that causes animals suffering which is immoral, not killing and eating it. If you shoot a reindeer in the wild, that reindeer has lived a natural life. If it was standing in a 2 by 1 meter in a shed for several years, that would've been worse. So yes, I know people who consider themselves vegetarians and who might still eat meat on rare occasions. All of these people are biologists I might add.

I do eat meat without any moral suffering, but I try to be an aware consumer. Norway is not part of the EU, so the meat we get here is mostly our own. If I'm faced with the choice of buying cheaper meat from Brazil, I choose not to because I don't want to support the meat industry in that country.

__________________
Something Completely Different

TheBig3

I'm not sure if its been mentioned, but the smartest reason to be a vegitarian is its brilliant, economically speaking.

The most cursory math would show that vegitables cost less to grow, process, and recreate than any animal.

The most cursory business knowledge says that with lower costs to the middle man, we end up paying less.

its also why I try to eat chicken and fish rather than the red meats because their smaller and therefore cost less.

I've always said if vegitarians would get their act together, they'd ****can the environmental BS and start selling things as good economics.

Green = Green.

Know you're demogrpahic veggies, and know their thought process.

__________________
I've moved to a new address

Son of JayJamJah

Meat is simply too delicious for a majority of people who are raised with it to stop eating; in particular red meat.

__________________
Me, Myself and I United as One

If you're posting in the music forums make sure to be thoughtful and expressive, if you're posting in the lounge ask yourself "is this something that adds to the conversation?" It's important to remember that a lot of people use each thread. You're probably not as funny or clever as you think, I know I'm not.

My Van Morrison Discography Thread

TheBig3

I fall back on my position I take most times, let them suffer. If you want to starve yourself, so be it. I have no remorse for people who do it to themselves.

They'll die earlier too, enjoy the heartattacks.

__________________
I've moved to a new address

Son of JayJamJah

__________________
Me, Myself and I United as One

If you're posting in the music forums make sure to be thoughtful and expressive, if you're posting in the lounge ask yourself "is this something that adds to the conversation?" It's important to remember that a lot of people use each thread. You're probably not as funny or clever as you think, I know I'm not.

My Van Morrison Discography Thread

Guybrush

Similar to some of that big3 is saying, of the stronger arguments to be a vegetarian, I think the fact that a cow needs to eat many kilos of grass to put on one kilogram of meat (roughly ten times more) is a good argument. By growing vegetables, you can get a much higher quantity of food out of the areas that we now use for animal grazing.

The exception, as I mentioned in my previous post, is that some areas used for grazing simply are not suitable for growing vegetables.

If you care about wether or not the animals suffer, then chickens are treated pretty bad globally, I think. They certainly don't have the legal rights of pigs and cattle in Norway.


I agree that meat is delicious. I think we should just have meat plants where we grow brick-sized slabs of beef from animal stemcells. With some new technology, we can take carbon out of the air and put it in the growth medium for the cells.

__________________
Something Completely Different

TheBig3

Chickens though, don't have a soul, or at least i'm guessing because no religion bans their consumption.

The same land for grazing is easily converted in quite a few cases, it has to do with soil minerals. Native Americans had mastered this practice with little to no technology at their disposal.

__________________
I've moved to a new address

Son of JayJamJah

So did farmers.

Where I grew up, farmland was always carefully chosen for the soil that'd produce the highest yield whereas pasture usually doubled as orchid or land in around a river or pond.

Here is the reality, it's about demand, people demand meat and demand lowest prices possible much more then they demand ethical treatment of the future entree and careful care of mother earth.

I see both sides; I eat meat, but I do buy my meat from a community livestock club (4-H) I have the luxury of being able to afford to do this. I think we should all respect the earth, but to think we have some profound quantifiable impact (i.e. carbon footprint) is narcissistic and naive. In the 24 hour day of the earths existence humanity is less then a fraction of a second. Can we do damage, maybe, it seems likely, but it also seems likely the earth with adapt and survive.

Anyway, I'm going to eat a burger.

__________________
Me, Myself and I United as One

If you're posting in the music forums make sure to be thoughtful and expressive, if you're posting in the lounge ask yourself "is this something that adds to the conversation?" It's important to remember that a lot of people use each thread. You're probably not as funny or clever as you think, I know I'm not.

My Van Morrison Discography Thread

Guybrush

Minerals yes .. sometimes those minerals are shaped like big mountains and boulders and the soil layer available to plants averages at about 10 centimeters. I live in the arctic. I would like to see people try and grow some corn here .. still, the reindeer do okay because they can graze lichen, bryophytes and the dry tufts of grass that cling on to life up here.

Talking about souls have little relevance outside severly religious communities. I regard it pretty much the same way as people who claim there are leprechauns out there handing out wishes .. and wait patiently for the religious fog to clear from people's minds.

So to sum up, it makes no sense for me to decide the question if it's morally justifiable to harm an animal or not on wether or not it has a soul - which is something you can't prove any living thing posesses anyways.

__________________
Something Completely Different