The Bitch Box

djchameleon · 07-25-2013, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freebase Dali

The point of the hypothetical scenario is not what the cop would do in reality, it's how people would react in reality. So you still haven't answered the question.

I didn't answer the question on purpose. I was dodging it by giving a politician type of answer

Ummm but seriously in the wake of everything that's been going on lately. Most people would be outraged if the cop stopped the black kid for what appears to be no reason even if the cop has a specific reason for it and that's to protect the safety of others.

Freebase Dali · 07-25-2013, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djchameleon

I didn't answer the question on purpose. I was dodging it by giving a politician type of answer

Ummm but seriously in the wake of everything that's been going on lately. Most people would be outraged if the cop stopped the black kid for what appears to be no reason even if the cop has a specific reason for it and that's to protect the safety of others.

So even you realize the inconsistency here. I admire that you can admit it.
But this begs the question of whether or not profiling (not necessarily strictly racial profiling) is a good thing or not.
We could say that it's good in some cases, and not others, but we would have to base that on objectivity. Statistics and probabilities versus risk. Whether skin color comes into play or not would be irrelevant beyond those statistics.

Indeed, if there has been a string of child abductions at a park, vigilant folks in the area would keep an eye out and report anything subjectively suspicious, which is sorta what went down in the LiveLeak video, minus the string of abductions part. (There was just a straight up profiling there)
Fortunately, the old man turned out not to be a pedophile. He may have been angry that he can't enjoy an afternoon watching his grandchildren play in a park without being harassed, but better safe than sorry, right?

This is the thought process that goes into the acceptance of profiling, which we all see as reasonable.

The inconsistency I'm trying to point out in the Zimmerman case is the largely ignored factors in that particular neighborhood with the string of break-ins, and Treyvon APPEARING to fit the profile in his mannerisms. While it turned out to be a complete (and tragic) misunderstanding, and also a hugely irresponsible decision by Zimmerman to not just call the cops and stay out of it, which is really what people should be angry about since it prompted a response by Treyvon which ended in his death, the fact that "racial profiling" is sounding alarms louder than plain ol' bad judgement is saddening. Especially when the circumstances and statistics in that area actually warranted, at the very least, concern.

I see this as two separate issues. Zimmerman's actions should be under fire. Not his reaction to the scenario. Just like the concerned citizen reacted to the possibility that the old white man watching kids at the park should at least be looked into by authorities to make sure everything jived, which is what they did, and nobody batted an eye.

I just think that should be the case on both sides before we start stoking the flames of racial tension unnecessarily.

djchameleon · 07-25-2013, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freebase Dali

The inconsistency I'm trying to point out in the Zimmerman case is the largely ignored factors in that particular neighborhood with the string of break-ins, and Treyvon APPEARING to fit the profile in his mannerisms. While it turned out to be a complete (and tragic) misunderstanding, and also a hugely irresponsible decision by Zimmerman to not just call the cops and stay out of it, which is really what people should be angry about since it prompted a response by Treyvon which ended in his death, the fact that "racial profiling" is sounding alarms louder than plain ol' bad judgement is saddening. Especially when the circumstances and statistics in that area actually warranted, at the very least, concern.

I see this as two separate issues. Zimmerman's actions should be under fire. Not his reaction to the scenario. Just like the concerned citizen reacted to the possibility that the old white man watching kids at the park should at least be looked into by authorities to make sure everything jived, which is what they did, and nobody batted an eye.

I just think that should be the case on both sides before we start stoking the flames of racial tension unnecessarily.

See the thing is he did call the cops being neighborhood watch and all but they told him to just stay in his car and watch but he chose not to. He decided to take actions into his own hands and start creeping up behind him. If someone you don't know starts stalking you, wouldn't you be alert and on guard?

Also when I mentioned profiling, I mean even down the smallest of things such as going into a store and having the clerk watch you while shopping. Or walking past a car and having a lady clutch her purse and double check to make sure that the alarm is set. Also, even getting nervous looks when you enter an elevator just for being a black person.

Trollheart · 07-25-2013, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanilla

I think it's more a psychological thing than an actual "energy" but I've noticed when someone I've lived with is in a bad mood it tends to transpire to everyone else. It could be that peoples negative attitudes makes me feel negative towards them? But I more or less just feel sick seeing people moan about others as though their **** don't stink.

What makes a person lose it? How do people end up exploding and doing something they would never consider doing before? Is it just them overreacting or is it a build up of other people's problems that get put on this person, causing them to react?

Here is an example from a University website:

It may be the case that it's perceived aggression and not actual. It appears to be from what I've read. But from an outsiders perspective (perhaps an over analytical one) people seem to be particularly unhappy with others for whatever reason. I think it possibly reflects what is going on in their own lives, what issues may be affecting them or stressing them out making them not handle situations as well as they could of. I certainly have been guilty of that before! That is what's be on my mind. Am I seeing it or is it my own problem?

Pedestrian, you're a psych major, what do you think about this?

GAAHHHH!!! Comments like this make me want to SHOOT EVERYONE I KNOW!

(Nah, not seriously: you know me, just takin the piss. Where? Hey, that's MY business! God you make me so ANNNNNGGGRRYYYY!!!!!!!

Freebase Dali · 07-25-2013, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djchameleon

See the thing is he did call the cops being neighborhood watch and all but they told him to just stay in his car and watch but he chose not to. He decided to take actions into his own hands and start creeping up behind him. If someone you don't know starts stalking you, wouldn't you be alert and on guard?

Yea, and I agree with that. Has more to do with Zimmerman being an idiot than a racist. Also, they didn't tell him to stay in his car. They asked him if he was following him, to which he replied, yes. They said "you don't need to do that".

Quote:

Also when I mentioned profiling, I mean even down the smallest of things such as going into a store and having the clerk watch you while shopping. Or walking past a car and having a lady clutch her purse and double check to make sure that the alarm is set. Also, even getting nervous looks when you enter an elevator just for being a black person.

Let me let you in on a little something.
I live around a majority of black folks in my apartment complex. But I don't fear for my goods or my life. Why? Because I know it's not a high-crime neighborhood. I walk freely here, without fear.

When I drive through the scummiest part of town every morning to work, and afternoon back from it, I lock my car door and keep an open eye. Sure, it's 95 percent black there, but it's not about that. It's about all the crime there. It isn't my fault that the ones perpetrating the crimes are black. I don't care if it was 100 percent white. It's a known bad area, and I'm cognizant of that. It's called using common sense.

If I was a store clerk in a bad part of town, or actually, just basically any service station really, I'd be on guard no matter what. If the place has gotten hit a lot by thieves or otherwise, it doesn't matter who comes into the place, you keep an eye out. It's common sense.
Somehow, though, I doubt that individuals that feel profiled in these scenarios are actually going out and ensuring that every other race isn't getting the same treatment. People only notice it when it's them under the microscope. Can you definitively say that others aren't being watched as well?

Maybe we should first confirm that indeed, only blacks are being viewed as suspicious. Then, if that's the case, let's confirm whether or not there's an actual reason for that beyond "Oh, he must just hate blacks".

But I do agree on one thing. People are FAR more scared of events than those events are likely to happen.
People in general think the world is more dangerous than any time before, when in fact it is safer, and crime has lowered.
You can blame mass media for this. People are going to have the perception that they need to be more careful than they actually do, when all they're hearing about is crime, crime, crime. Even though the perception actually contradicts the facts.

djchameleon · 07-25-2013, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freebase Dali

Let me let you in on a little something.
I live around a majority of black folks in my apartment complex. But I don't fear for my goods or my life. Why? Because I know it's not a high-crime neighborhood. I walk freely here, without fear.

When I drive through the scummiest part of town every morning to work, and afternoon back from it, I lock my car door and keep an open eye. Sure, it's 95 percent black there, but it's not about that. It's about all the crime there. It isn't my fault that the ones perpetrating the crimes are black. I don't care if it was 100 percent white. It's a known bad area, and I'm cognizant of that. It's called using common sense.

If I was a store clerk in a bad part of town, or actually, just basically any service station really, I'd be on guard no matter what. If the place has gotten hit a lot by thieves or otherwise, it doesn't matter who comes into the place, you keep an eye out. It's common sense.
Somehow, though, I doubt that individuals that feel profiled in these scenarios are actually going out and ensuring that every other race isn't getting the same treatment. People only notice it when it's them under the microscope. Can you definitively say that others aren't being watched as well?

Maybe we should first confirm that indeed, only blacks are being viewed as suspicious. Then, if that's the case, let's confirm whether or not there's an actual reason for that beyond "Oh, he must just hate blacks".

But I do agree on one thing. People are FAR more scared of events than those events are likely to happen.
People in general think the world is more dangerous than any time before, when in fact it is safer, and crime has lowered.
You can blame mass media for this. People are going to have the perception that they need to be more careful than they actually do, when all they're hearing about is crime, crime, crime. Even though the perception actually contradicts the facts.

You know logically I understand that but having dealt with it all of my life it always feels like it's a race related issue. Especially when you see the same clerk not care about a white person that enters the store but then you get followed and have someone constantly looking at you as a minority. It's really hard to just logically think about it when you are in the heat of the moment and you feel like it only happens to people of color.

~~butthead aka 216~~ · 07-25-2013, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djchameleon

Why would you even believe a word of what he said when he lied numerous times? He was obviously profiling the kid. It happens all the fucking time and now that it happens in this case it's automatically irrelevant and race isn't involved give me a break. Just be glad that you don't have to deal with being profiled in your daily life.

You wanted a link Freebase and I gave you one. Sure it had a rumor but it wasn't about the initial thing that I was talking about. The specific emails that showcase his racism.

cause i saw the video he made with police reenacting what happened and i thought he presented himself really well and didnt seem nervous or seem like he was lying. and yeah maybe he was profiling but i dont think it was racial.

its not a crime to be suspicious. had trayvon been a burglar then zimm would be a hero. theres nothin wrong with bein suspicious especually when the people of your community basically ask you to do exactly that. a lot of ppl have made it seem like it's somehow......wrong to be suspicious??especialyl in a place that has had recent burglaries

Freebase Dali · 07-25-2013, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djchameleon

You know logically I understand that but having dealt with it all of my life it always feels like it's a race related issue. Especially when you see the same clerk not care about a white person that enters the store but then you get followed and have someone constantly looking at you as a minority. It's really hard to just logically think about it when you are in the heat of the moment and you feel like it only happens to people of color.

I get that, and I understand emotions frequently trump logic and evidence, but if there's one thing I think the justice system did right in this case is not let that happen. Regardless of the shoddy job the prosecution did, I don't think racism is to blame here simply because it's the easiest thing to latch onto in order to feel wronged, and thus, have a cause to fight for that didn't really exist in this case.

Honestly, if we really ask ourselves had the verdict come out differently, would this really even be an issue right now? It certainly wouldn't be a verdict reading, "guilty of racism in the first degree". It wouldn't have anything to do with that.

djchameleon · 07-25-2013, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freebase Dali

I get that, and I understand emotions frequently trump logic and evidence, but if there's one thing I think the justice system did right in this case is not let that happen. Regardless of the shoddy job the prosecution did, I don't think racism is to blame here simply because it's the easiest thing to latch onto in order to feel wronged, and thus, have a cause to fight for that didn't really exist in this case.

Honestly, if we really ask ourselves had the verdict come out differently, would this really even be an issue right now? It certainly wouldn't be a verdict reading, "guilty of racism in the first degree". It wouldn't have anything to do with that.

There would most certainly have been an issue if the verdict came back saying Zimmerman was guilty but it just wouldn't be outrage from the same group of people obviously.

I can't help feeling that if Trayvon was white this verdict would have been different and a majority of people going around saying this had nothing to do with race wouldn't feel outraged that the evidence favored Zimmerman.

Freebase Dali · 07-26-2013, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djchameleon

There would most certainly have been an issue if the verdict came back saying Zimmerman was guilty but it just wouldn't be outrage from the same group of people obviously.

I can't help feeling that if Trayvon was white this verdict would have been different and a majority of people going around saying this had nothing to do with race wouldn't feel outraged that the evidence favored Zimmerman.

Why do you think that if Treyvon was white it would have been different? Are you under the assumption that all the jurors were white racists? Where are you getting that assumption from?

Also, if it was the same case facts, the same prosecution, same everything, and they found him guilty... I wouldn't be angry for any racial reason. I'd be angry that the jury chose to ignore evidence and law and make this about emotion. Whether that law is reasonable or not is another matter entirely, but it is still law and Zimmerman didn't break it, according to a jury of his peers.

Remember OJ? I was in homeroom at school when they read the verdict. Blacks were threatening to start a race riot (and they would have) at school if the verdict came back guilty. Fortunately for my white ass, it didn't. But everyone knows OJ did it. There just wasn't enough evidence in the case to convince the jury. And that's how the system works. But you certainly didn't see everyone jumping on the racial bandwagon in regard to that outcome.
Had he been found guilty, though, according to Obama and the "lense of history through African American's eyes" or whatever, we would have had hell to pay simply because OJ was black. Not that he was really not guilty or anything.

It's hard to see people like that as objective when facts and evidence have no bearing on their perception of reality. And frankly, it's not all that great for social progress either.

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