The Recreational Drug Thread (country, Europe, American, effects, shows)

[joyboyo53]

why are words capitalized in that quote? they only thing i did capitalize is uncapitalized.

[Guybrush]

Originally Posted by jgd85

San Francisco - The Snitch - Marijuana Advocate 'Flabbergasted' at DEA Raid of S.F. Dispensary
o rly? we already know obama says one thing and does another.

not lets think about why pot should be legalized:

prohibition of alcohol didnt curb usage, it just lead to a less safe product with an artificially high price
that artificially high price makes it a place for gangs to profit, hence mexico drug cartels
the violence from those cartels is directly related to our consumption
the war on drugs has cost nearly 1/2 trillion dollars since it started, yet marijuana use has not gone down
innocent otherwise law abiding citizens goto jail and ruin their lives because of an illegal plant
its an attack on civil liberty
its less harmful than both alcohol and cigarettes, not to mention 'pharmacuticals' like ssri's
it fuels the corrupt prison system in america, we have the highest incariration rate in the world
not to mention the huge economic impacts, marijuana legailzation would be a net gain of >$25 billion a year for the economy
addiction to anything is a SOCIAL MEDICAL PROBLEM, not a criminal one

society as a whole? give me a break. if your out to benefit society, it would make more sense to outlaw alcohol and cigarettes and you know it.

Your claim that alcohol consumption didn't go down with prohibition is just a claim and I see no reason to believe it so far. It might be true, but remember that I'm not an american, so I don't know how successful prohibitions have been in your country.

You say a lot of "innocents" are incarcerated. Actually, I checked it up, and the punishment for using marijuana is not that hard. If a cop finds you with a joint, you get a fine - you don't go to prison. There are also drug courts in America where people are given treatment rather than jail time. The people who go to jail are often dealers and almost always have criminal records from before.

Source >> Who’s Really in Prison for Marijuana?

You also make the argument that prohibiting marijuana is costful to society. You have to remember that legalizing marijuana will probably lead to more use and thus also have a cost on society. Some studies expect higher occurrence of schizophrenia, depression, cognitive deficits and also significantly higher risk in people for developing dependency on other more dangerous drugs like heroin and cocaine. Those drugs will, of course, also cost society.

If you don't believe marijuana is harmful for people, you should look at this article that predicts a serious increase in schizophrenia with increased marijuana use.

>> Scientists warn of cannabis ‘timebomb’

Originally Posted by Dr. David Murray, chief scientist of the Office of National Drug Control Policy. "On the Legalization — or Not — of Marijuana." New York Times, Freakenomics. October 30, 2007

Marijuana use is currently the leading cause of treatment need for those abusing or dependent on illegal drugs, is the second leading reason for drug-induced emergency room episodes, and has surpassed alcohol for young people in addictive risk and impact on dependency requiring treatment.

Some statistics to back up the man's claim can be found here -> Trends in Marijuana Treatment Admissions, by State: 1992-2002


Furthermore, you say it's less harmful than alcohol and cigarettes. This idea is very popular and maybe it's true, but so what? It's still bad. To illustrate my point, should a country that allows murder also allow rape because it's not as bad? Allowing something harmful to society doesn't mean you should by default accept everything else which is harmful.


You argue that the US government could make money, I guess by marijuana taxation. Okay, so how are you gonna do this? Are you gonna let the american private market buy into drug farms located in other countries and support the industry that goes on there? Or is some company gonna get a marijuana license to grow themselves and have a marijuana monopoly? Should the government sell marijuana? I'm not saying there are no good solutions, I'm just interested in hearing what they are.


For your claim that it's an attack on liberty, well .. You live in a democratic country. Thus, I assume the majority is against legalization, otherwise it would've been legalized. Since it's not, I guess you don't have the majority yet. Does that qualify as an attack on liberty? I don't think so.


edit :


By the way, I did write that my stance is against. I could've been a bit more general in that I don't necessarily think it has to be depending on what society is like, but in Norway today for example, I see no reason to legalize.

[joyboyo53]

ok let me explain. just because you quote a 'study' doesnt make it fact. tobacco companies had studies proving that it didnt cause cancer for decades. so just because i dont back up every claim with some worthless internet study doesnt really mean anything. furthermore, people who have vested intrest in drug control, arent really reliable candidates for making such studies.

Originally Posted by toretorden

Your claim that alcohol consumption didn't go down with prohibition is just a claim and I see no reason to believe it so far. It might be true, but remember that I'm not an american, so I don't know how successful prohibitions have been in your country.

read up and see how successful prohibition was.

Prohibition in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by toretorden

You say a lot of "innocents" are incarcerated. Actually, I checked it up, and the punishment for using marijuana are not that hard. If a cop finds you with a joint, you get a fine - you don't go to prison. There are also drug courts in America where people are given treatment rather than jail time. The people who go to jail are often dealers and almost always have criminal records from before.

did you read the part about mandatory minimum sentences for repeat offenders? because im pretty sure being a repeat offender doesnt exactly make you a real criminal. the real reason that there is so many people in rehab, is because that is a false statistic created by the dea. they were really sneaky, they made it so that you could opt for rehab instead of jail... that way they can go around saying "look at this huge problem, all these people are in rehab for this terrible drug" when in fact they were just looking for another way to villianize it. a real study is one that is objective, not done by someone whos job depends on making sure there is someone to police.

Originally Posted by toretorden

You also make the argument that prohibiting marijuana is costful to society. You have to remember that legalizing marijuana will probably lead to more use and thus also have a cost on society. Some studies expect higher occurrence of schizophrenia, depression, cognitive deficits and also significantly higher risk in people for developing dependency on other more dangerous drugs like heroin and cocaine. Those drugs will, of course, also cost society.

once again, look back at prohibiton. see in the effect on society where it say

"The cost of enforcing Prohibition was high, and the lack of tax revenues on alcohol (some $500 million annually nationwide) affected government coffers."

Prohibition in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

those same risk are risk assosciated with many LEGAL drugs in the united states, even over the counter substances. if your really worried about how legality of the drug effects consumption take a look at the netherlands. fewer people smoke marijuana there, where its legal, than they do in america. you know studies have also shown that people who smoke cigarettes and drink alchohol are also at a higher risk for trying those same substances... maybe it says something about the persons personality and not the drug itself... maybe we should treat the problem, not the symptom.

Originally Posted by toretorden

If you don't believe marijuana is harmful for people, you should look at this article that predicts a serious increase in schizophrenia with increased marijuana use.

Erowid

go get some real education about drugs before you post one more article like you have done some in depth personal research.

Originally Posted by toretorden

Furthermore, you say it's less harmful than alcohol and cigarettes. This idea is very popular and maybe it's true, but so what? It's still bad. To illustrate my point, should a country that allows murder also allow rape because it's not as bad? Allowing something harmful to society doesn't mean you should by default accept everything else which is harmful.

gee comparing muder to rape doesnt really seem that relevant to this discussion, seems like your going for shock value. what i am saying is that there has been an illegitamate war on marijuana for the past 7 decades and it is unjust. the reason i make such arguements is because the forces that keep it illegal use arguments that become invalid when you consider the fact that alcohol and tobacco are legal consumable substances.

Originally Posted by toretorden

You argue that the US government could make money, I guess by marijuana taxation. Okay, so how are you gonna do this? Are you gonna let the american private market buy into drug farms located in other countries and support the industry that goes on there? Or is some company gonna get a marijuana license to grow themselves and have a marijuana monopoly? Should the government sell marijuana? I'm not saying there are no good solutions, I'm just interested in hearing what they are.

this is a tough one... if only there was another industry similar to compare it to. hmmmmm... hmmmmm.... hmmm.... WAIT, I GOT IT! how about the same way there is multiple corporations that own both tobacco farms and alcohol distillaires and they are heavily taxed. what makes this any different what so ever? the way they would make the MOST money would be by not spending over $50 billion dollars a year making a benign PLANT illegal, and throwing people in jail (that cost money too, ya know).

Originally Posted by toretorden

For your claim that it's an attack on liberty, well .. You live in a democratic country. Thus, I assume the majority is against legalization, otherwise it would've been legalized. Since it's not, I guess you don't have the majority yet. Does that qualify as an attack on liberty? I don't think so.

the reason marijauana was made illegal in the first place was twofold, one because it put additional strain on the timber industry (who had lobbyist), and two because a man who had a personal vendetta against it made hystaria out of nothing. this is the testimony harry j. anslinger made to congress supporting the 'Marihuana Tax Act, 1937' before it was made illegal.

"There are 100,000 total marijuana smokers in the US, and most are Negroes, Hispanics, Filipinos and entertainers. Their Satanic music, jazz and swing, result from marijuana usage. This marijuana causes white women to seek sexual relations with Negroes, entertainers and any others."

so no, it wasnt a democratic principle that made it illegal, it was lies that villified it, and kept it that way for decades. so yes, it is an attack on liberty (you might wanna look up what liberty means).



as right-track said i really dont prefer this becoming another scoring contest, but i will assure you that you are in way over your head. i know more about this subject than i care to admit.

[Guybrush]

Alright alright - I get it. To defend legalization of marijuana in the USA, all you need to do is :

• Ignore that marijuana users run numerous health risks and that it might lead to a general decline in health which ultimately costs society money.
• Claim that America is run by corrupt lobbyists, creating statistics and making up lies, then use that to assume that most arguments against marijuana legalization are false.
• Justify or "excuse" the legalization of marijuana with comparisons to tobacco and alcohol

Further, you call my sources worthless internet studies, then give me an address to an incredibly biased site. Good job.

Now, you write that you wanna let loose the american market forces on marijuana, just like with cigarettes and alcohol. You could do that, but I guess since labour is more expensive in USA than it is in 3rd world country where cannabis is typically grown, I guess these businesses would then support foreign drug industry. If you think that's okay, then fine. I don't.

I still can't see why alcohol and tobacco being legal automatically invalidates any counter-arguments against cannabis legalisation. Why? Also, you say that many other drugs have harmful effects, well .. First off, as with the alcohol and tobacco, I can't see why allowing one dangerous thing should allow for another. Furthermore, cannabis has more appeal as a recreational drug than say .. painkillers or medication against high blood pressure.


Although you might think so, I'm not really an anti-cannabis kind of guy. It's not like I have a personal vendetta against the drug. It's just that at it's simplest, I don't see why one should legalize something which will hurt people's health directly or indirectly and possibly create social issues in a society. That's the core of my argument and it's always thoroughly ignored with excuses like "those studies are worthless", "alcohol is also allowed" and so on. The second is simply how do you do it? I don't like the idea of supporting cannabis industries that make money by selling their drugs to countries where it's illegal. However, I'm no expert .. maybe there's a way to do it that will be morally acceptable by all.

How would you push your argument if you think outside of USA?

edit :

By the way, you write as if legalization in Netherlands has been a good thing (actually, it's just "tolerated"), but they have a lot of drug-related problems in that country. I know that country better than you think because I've spent a lot of time there.

[Dr_Rez]

It seems that both of you have treated this as a 2 sided argument. There is always the grey area where marijuana could be legalized to a limited extent. As you have mentioned alcohol, which has a serving and drinking age limit, (which should obviously be 18) is a middle ground between those who feel strongly one way or another.

I personally am for the full legalization, and feel he Pro's FAR outweigh the cons but would give ground in an argument over legalization if a compromise was reached. It seems this is never talked about when debated are being flung at each other.

[Guybrush]

Originally Posted by RezZ

It seems that both of you have treated this as a 2 sided argument. There is always the grey area where marijuana could be legalized to a limited extent. As you have mentioned alcohol, which has a serving and drinking age limit, (which should obviously be 18) is a middle ground between those who feel strongly one way or another.

I personally am for the full legalization, and feel he Pro's FAR outweigh the cons but would give ground in an argument over legalization if a compromise was reached. It seems this is never talked about when debated are being flung at each other.

Actually, I do agree with you to a large extent. There's the cost of legalizing it and there's the cost of prohibiting it. I agree that it's not a black and white issue and what should be discussed is wether or not the benefits of legalizing it outweighs the costs.

If you look internally in a country, of course it will have implications for society health and social-wise that will be negative. If alcohol or cigarettes were unknown, letting those loose in society would likely also lead to negative results in this regard. I don't want to get into much more detail about that because I think the point is actully exhausted.

However, something else which is not so frequently brought up is you also have to figure out how to handle cannabis in a political way. jgd suggested letting companies sell it and then government taxation. A "problem" with cannabis is that you can homegrow it and if that's tolerated, people are gonna grow it and sell it themselves, pushing down the prices and avoiding taxation. Because of this, if you're gonna say that legalizing it will be cheaper for society, you need a way of regulating it. The appearant way is to say something like "homegrowing will be illegal" or "you can only have one plant". However, people are still gonna grow it and then you need the police to handle those .. in other words, in that scenario there will still be cannabis related crimes which will cost society to deal with and the government and it's taxes are going to come head to head with homegrowers and illegal sellers. You can deal with this by saying "anything goes", but then you essentially only have the costs of legalizing cannabis in society and very few benefits.

Looking out of the country, there's the industry which sells these drugs operating in other countries. The general perception is that these are not very good industries and so that could also be a moral challenge. Are your market forces going to support these industries? Also something you could consider is that marijuana is still illegal in most nations in the world. What would legalizing it do to your neighbour? Would it strengthen the industries that your neighbours generally percieve as harmful? Would it turn your country into a huge source of drugs to all the neighbours who don't like it? I don't like the idea of America, such a monster in terms of marketing power, possibly marketing marijuana. That also means marketing out of the country because it would have a huge impact on other nations like Norway.


And so on .. There are so many points that are not being addressed and people never think about them. They usually focus purely on health effects (sometimes by countering/discrediting/ignoring them) rather than effects on society. I usually try to think for society. For example, I'm prepared to vote against Norway in EU because while it will give me much cheaper food prices, it will also introduce foreign agricultural products into our market and put simply, there's no way norwegian farmers can compete with those prices, so they would have to go. I'd rather have a nation where agriculture is possible and pay a little extra for my meat and milk. In other words, I'm prepared to give up something for what I think is the greater good. Had I been a cannabis consumer, I probably still would be against legalization.

[lucifer_sam]

Originally Posted by toretorden

However, something else which is not so frequently brought up is you also have to figure out how to handle cannabis in a political way. jgd suggested letting companies sell it and then government taxation. A "problem" with cannabis is that you can homegrow it and if that's tolerated, people are gonna grow it and sell it themselves, pushing down the prices and avoiding taxation. Because of this, if you're gonna say that legalizing it will be cheaper for society, you need a way of regulating it. The appearant way is to say something like "homegrowing will be illegal" or "you can only have one plant". However, people are still gonna grow it and then you need the police to handle those .. in other words, in that scenario there will still be cannabis related crimes which will cost society to deal with and the government and it's taxes are going to come head to head with homegrowers and illegal sellers. You can deal with this by saying "anything goes", but then you essentially only have the costs of legalizing cannabis in society and very few benefits.

It's not illegal to grow your own tobacco or brew your own beer/distill your own alcohol. Where the industry begins to suffer is when people flood the market with supply and expect prices to remain constant. Cannabis, being a relatively hardy plant and easy to grow, could conceivably dominate agrarian business (much like tobacco does in parts of the United States). Indeed, the biggest problem the legalization of cannabis introduces has nothing to do with its existence as a recreational drug, but the pressure it puts on farmers. Already many farmers (and consumers who purchase corn-based products) are feeling the effects that the ethanol buzz has on crop prices -- imagine this on a much larger scale.

You definitely bring up some interesting points. What I want to see are conclusive studies which are regulated by impartial groups to determine what implications long-term cannabis use has on people. If people are ever going to throw prejudice and stereotypes aside there needs to be a push for comprehensive information about cannabis use in general. There's just too much propaganda floating around, even today, for people to recognize the difference between valuable information and government-endorsed bullshit.

As of right now I don't see why marijuana shouldn't be legalized, but I would rather it stem from investigative research about its effects than general popularity. As with all things that change in the universe this will certainly take time, it might be decades before it's even decriminalized, but I can't imagine any possible reason why America (and the rest of the world) can't approach cannabis legalization objectively.

[Guybrush]

Originally Posted by lucifer_sam

It's not illegal to grow your own tobacco or brew your own beer/distill your own alcohol.

Hmm, are you sure? I thought destillation and selling of homemade liquor (moonshine) was illegal in America. Anyways, alcohol and tobacco products are generally much more refined products than cannabis. Smoking and drying a tobacco leaf does not make for a good cigarette and leaving yeast and sugar to ferment in a barrel does not give you a good beer. I've never had a homebrew that could actually compete in a market with the stuff you get in the stores, yet for cannabis, it's much simpler and much more feasible. Thus, I would argue that tobacco/alcohol/cannabis comparisons are not a good source for predictions on how society will be impacted by legalization.

Sorry for being a bit nitpicky about that detail. I do agree with almost everything else you write except I obviously still don't think it should be legalized. I will agree that legalization has benefits, I just don't think it would be beneficial overall.

[lucifer_sam]

Originally Posted by toretorden

Hmm, are you sure? I thought destillation and selling of homemade liquor (moonshine) was illegal in America. Anyways, alcohol and tobacco products are generally much more refined products than cannabis. Smoking and drying a tobacco leaf does not make for a good cigarette and leaving yeast and sugar to ferment in a barrel does not give you a good beer. I've never had a homebrew that could actually compete in a market with the stuff you get in the stores, yet for cannabis, it's much simpler and much more feasible. Thus, I would argue that tobacco/alcohol/cannabis comparisons are not a good source for predictions on how society will be impacted by legalization.

Sorry for being a bit nitpicky about that detail. I do agree with almost everything else you write except I obviously still don't think it should be legalized. I will agree that legalization has benefits, I just don't think it would be beneficial overall.

It's illegal for commercial purposes, but not home use. Home wine and beer brewing are completely legal, have been since 1978.

[Guybrush]

Originally Posted by lucifer_sam

It's illegal for commercial purposes

Exactly

It has to be, otherwise people would (among other things) avoid taxation. If you legalize and tax mary jane, the government is gonna have to duke it out with all those people who will grow it and sell it.