The Recreational Drug Thread (house, member, quote)

[sleepy jack]

The War on Drugs is the most retarded thing ever in the sense it doesn't work and the government knows this. There was a report - the RAND report - that showed criminalization was actually a less effective method of discouragement than education. I'm not even in complete disagreement in regards to many of the ideas (ignoring the propaganda) presented by the war on drugs. Heroin isn't good for you, nor is cocaine but they approach it wrong. It should be approached with education and rehabilitation for addicts. They didn't have to make smoking illegal to see a reduction in the amount of people smoking. They didn't fight it (I'm not advocating banning cigarettes, I smoke them whenever I get ridiculously stressed but they are terrible for you) by making it illegal they fought it by educating people about the actual dangers of smoking and the health complications. I think, the government should stop this ridiculous drug war, and actual educate people on the realities of the drugs that are actually a serious risk to your health and problem (in regards to how the substances are traded and dealt with etc. I'm talking obviously about the hard drugs where the trade is sometimes violent and the usage is always unhealthy and dangerous.)

[Dr_Rez]

Originally Posted by sleepy jack

Heroin isn't good for you, nor is cocaine but they approach it wrong. It should be approached with education and rehabilitation for addicts.

Whats really sad is the federal ban on needle exchange funding or programs. War On Drugs Clock That site has some actual numbers towards the bottom on how many lives they could save by retracting that stupid law.

Originally Posted by sleepy jack

I think, the government should stop this ridiculous drug war, and actual educate people on the realities of the drugs that are actually a serious risk to your health and problem (in regards to how the substances are traded and dealt with etc.

That is a problem that is carried over into god knows how many things. I think that it mainly has to do with religion, which smears peoples beliefs into a moral issue. While I was in grade school we would have people from the church and many organizations come and preach abstinence. Now any normal human being knows this is absurd, and that proper protection should be taught in place of this idealistic religious standard of abstinence. The same is true with alcohol and many drugs. They preach never to do any of them, while what they should really be telling everyone is how to be safe instead of sorry.

In essence, I think not only is religion the cause of many, if not most wars, but tells people what to think instead of them doing the thinking themselves. Religion is the opium of the people. As long as there are unanswered problems the masses will blindly ignore science/fact and turn to religion. Ethan I know you have stated you are not religious (I am not either), so I am curious to know your stance on this type of stuff involving religion. Also thanks for contributing to the thread.

[sleepy jack]

Religion is one of the most dangerous things that could ever happen to society. Especially in regards to what they teach impressionable children. I was raised Catholic and there are many things in regards to certain "immoral" subjects I still feel guilty over. I can't walk into a store and buy condoms without feeling ridiculously ashamed (the same goes for masturbation, smoking, etc.) I logically know there's nothing wrong with these and sex, as well as self-pleasure is completely natural. I also know, rationally, that if I'm going to have sex contraceptives are the best route...Teaching abstinence doesn't work. Look at Sarah Palin's daughter Bristol for an example of this. That aside, the government (Bush 43) pumped a bunch of money into abstinence clubs across the school and the statistics showed that the females in the club were far more likely to partake in anal or oral sex. There's no moral there, in the eyes of the bible that behavior is just as wrong as vagina to penis sex.

Now as far as drugs go I don't really recall the bible talking about anything aside from drinking but even then it didn't talk about any of the objections I would have to drinking (and some drugs.) Which is the health perspective, I see nothing wrong with an intoxicated state of mind as long as you're not interfering with someone else's well being. However what the bible says is irrelevant, people have proven to pick and choose what they want to believe and the current Religious right believes all drugs are evil and bad. But again, there's no logical justification for this. There are plenty of secularists (myself included) who would argue that heroin is bad not because some celestial entity says so but because of how terrible it is for you and irresponsible drinking is bad because it poses a danger to others. There are real reasons for some of the arguments that are posed by the war on drugs but none of those reasons (which are primarily health related and not applicable to Marijuana I should add) are justified by the bible.

All the logic in that aside, I've stated several times before that in this day and age we simply cannot let faith dictate our morals. If we do that we have to logically accepted it when other cultures do as well, meaning when Muslim extremists fly planes into our towers we have to accept that is a moral action. We also have to accept the abuse of woman, the beheading of everyone and anyone, etc...all these things are apart of their culture and it all comes from religion. They're only using the same justification that we use to justify...well abstinence. This is the danger of letting religion, and not secularist ideas, dominate a society's taboos.

Sadly I agree that religion is something that will always be with us because of the simple question: how did we get here? It's silly though, we know enough now to know that the Bible, the Qu'ran, the Torah, are all fictitious. There's no way someone can rationally believe that the Earth is that young, that we managed to populate this quickly after the great flood (and that man fit millions of species onto a boat and lived to be nine hundred. Also something interesting about this, the Unfan and I spent an hour or so researching and doing math and Noah's family had to consist of millions of people in order for the Earth to have populated to the size it is now.) These things aren't just improbable, they're impossible and proven to be false. I'm very comfortable with not knowing and I think once everyone accepts that we don't know the beginning of our universe, the better off will be because at least will be without superstitions that only inhibit us.

Sorry to keep beating on, religion is a subject I can go on forever about. Religion does discourage critical thinking and logic (see above for proof of this.) It isn't a system of thinking that promotes individuality or anything. There's no room for intellectualism in a Church - as all the morals and ideas are already spelled out for you.

Religion probably has been the cause of most wars. Obviously most of the world (disregarding areas like the Middle East) doesn't fight over religion anymore but that's only because we've progressed beyond that in global affairs. A giant holy war over who's god is the right god now just wouldn't fly with the United Nations or anyone but there are still a lot of people in America (George W. Bush and Sarah Palin being prominent examples of this) who are so delusional that they believe, and are preparing, for the ultimate religious war. That's why there's this strong strong support for the state of Israel. They want everything to be ready for Jesus to come back. The Russians are supposed to lead some Muslim army full of infidels and whatnot against the Jewish people of Israel (backed by us of course.) It's a scary philosophy especially when you consider how everyone in our government is basically Christian and all policies point toward this way of thinking. I mean...it just blows my mind. I can't imagine how someone could actually get all jazzed about the end of the world.

I could go on more about this subject but I'll just stop now (I've already had to limit myself on certain points here) and say the reason I'm so passionate about Atheism and Agnosticism is not because I believe religion to be childish and false, but because of ideas like the one above. That philosophy in regards to Israel is one that is dominate on the national stage and it's horrifying. Religion is one of the most destructive things to ever happen to humanity.

[Dr_Rez]

Originally Posted by sleepy jack

Sorry to keep beating on, religion is a subject I can go on forever about. Religion does discourage critical thinking and logic (see above for proof of this.) It isn't a system of thinking that promotes individuality or anything. There's no room for intellectualism in a Church - as all the morals and ideas are already spelled out for you.

I have always seen it as an easy way out when someone is having a hard time. Hence why people who are struggling and need help are usually the ones to be very impressionable when it comes to religious propaganda. It is a set of beliefs and ideals that do not require the individual to figure out for themselves. It is a fact that people in general tend to like people that are similar to them. The problem is that these traits are very specific, being religion, area, and race. This develops a false partnership between the people. For example you would not say something mean and negative towards a person at your church, It is held in and not accepted. This anger or even hatred is let out of "scapegoats" or other races that are different or supposedly not the chosen ones.

What the world needs is a much more general set of common qualities in which we relate to other people in other parts of the world. Religion and race just does not work. Our technology as advanced so much over history, but our philosophy and people skills have most certainly not.

Well that is at least what I got from what you replied. With the main point being develop your own morals when it comes to drugs, pregnancy, and other hazy subjects.

Originally Posted by garbanzo

but what you need to remember is that christianity is very, very new. in fact, the whole idea of dogmatic religion is a recent invention. for the vast majority of human history, religion was a very healthy force. in many 'native' societies, it still is today.

It does not matter how old or new. It is still a set of ideals that have nothing to do with a godly figure. These ideals are basically marketed to the public in hope that they will tag along for the ride. Also religion has never been a very healthy force. There is not one society that was not plagued in some way by there religious standards. Maybe it did not cause crusades in which millions died, but certainly caused pain for quite a few.

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Im sure the next "i lIke to git hiiiii" post will come soon.

[garbanzo]

Originally Posted by RezZ

Also religion has never been a very healthy force. There is not one society that was not plagued in some way by there religious standards. Maybe it did not cause crusades in which millions died, but certainly caused pain for quite a few.

forgive me for being blunt, but you are wrong, plain and simple. you're making the mistake of thinking that large-scale, institutionalized religion is the only kind of religion. moreover, you seem to be forgetting that humans have been around for more than a few thousand years.

go read up on shamanism among the tukano indians of the colombian amazon, or among the san of southern africa. read about yanomamo shamanism, or peruvian curanderos, or australian clever men.

read about a shaman's role as a mediator, both within his society and between humans and the natural world.

read mircea eliade, joseph campbell, mihaly hoppal, gerardo reichel-dolmatoff. read something.

why shamanism? humans were hunter-gatherers for most of (pre)history. almost all known hunter-gatherer societies practice shamansim. the archaeological record suggests shamanism has been around for 200,000 years or longer. this means that for 99% of human history, it was the dominant form of religion on the planet.

if you want to bash christianity, be my guest. i'll tag along. but don't insist that all religion is bad.

[Dr_Rez]

Originally Posted by garbanzo

forgive me for being blunt, but you are wrong, plain and simple. you're making the mistake of thinking that large-scale, institutionalized religion is the only kind of religion. moreover, you seem to be forgetting that humans have been around for more than a few thousand years.

go read up on shamanism among the tukano indians of the colombian amazon, or among the san of southern africa. read about yanomamo shamanism, or peruvian curanderos, or australian clever men.

read about a shaman's role as a mediator, both within his society and between humans and the natural world.

read mircea eliade, joseph campbell, mihaly hoppal, gerardo reichel-dolmatoff. read something.


why shamanism? humans were hunter-gatherers for most of (pre)history. almost all known hunter-gatherer societies practice shamansim. the archaeological record suggests shamanism has been around for 200,000 years or longer. this means that for 99% of human history, it was the dominant form of religion on the planet.

if you want to bash christianity, be my guest. i'll tag along. but don't insist that all religion is bad.

We are talking about 2 different things. I am only refering to religions that have had large amounts of followers that have helped shape the way people think today. You are correct in bringing up "shamanism among the tukano indians of the colombian amazon, or among the san of southern africa", but these are small time chump change when compared to the major worldwide religions.

# Christianity: 2.1 billion
# Islam: 1.5 billion
# Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion
# Hinduism: 900 million
# Chinese traditional religion: 394 million
# Buddhism: 376 million
# primal-indigenous: 300 million
# African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million
# Sikhism: 23 million
# Juche: 19 million
# Spiritism: 15 million
# Judaism: 14 million
# Baha'i: 7 million
# Jainism: 4.2 million
# Shinto: 4 million
# Cao Dai: 4 million
# Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million
# Tenrikyo: 2 million
# Neo-Paganism: 1 million
# Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
# Rastafarianism: 600 thousand
# Scientology: 500 thousand

[garbanzo]

you've got some nice ideas there, but i'm afraid your perspective is a bit lopsided. first of all, let me say that i'm non-religious as well. i don't like to call myself atheist, i think it's silly to define my beliefs in terms of what i don't believe, but in the end, i'm quite certain there is no god in heaven up above.

but what you need to remember is that christianity is very, very new. in fact, the whole idea of dogmatic religion is a recent invention. for the vast majority of human history, religion was a very healthy force. in many 'native' societies, it still is today.

moreover, on the topic of drugs, it should be remembered that altered states of consciousness, induced both by narcotic substances and by non-chemical means, traditionally played a very significant role in world religions. most people think things like the peyote cult in the american southwest are exceptions, but in fact it is christianity that is the deviant here.

i know that shamanism and other native spiritual systems are not of much use to most people today, and that for most westerners religion is synonymous with christianity, but i think you should be clear on whether you're bashing institutionalized, dogmatic religions, or all religio-spiritual systems.

[garbanzo]

the religions you list are all very young. most have been around for less than 10,000 years. shamanism occupies the remaining 190,000 years of human history. while it does not dominate today, it is nonetheless the largest, oldest, and most significant religious system that ever existed. how can you justify brushing it off as if it were nothing?

if you qualify your statement by saying: "while most new religious systems are ultimately unhealthy social constructs, the spiritual systems that existed for most of human history were ultimate beneficial to society", then i'll shut up and go away. but as long as you insist that all religion is bad, i'll keep on arguing

[Dr_Rez]

Originally Posted by garbanzo

"while most new religious systems are ultimately unhealthy social constructs"

That is exactly what im saying. To be honest I do not know very much at all about the older religions being why I will not talk about them. I do know that that played a large role in creating the newer religions, but many of the ideas were scewed and left us with what we have today.

Also another reason I like to shed more light on the newer religions such as Christianity is because they have billions of members. 190,ooo years there was a small fraction of that, making it a much smaller scale.

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And lets end this hear, we have kind of ventured far form this threads topic

[garbanzo]

those numbers mean nothing. for 95% of human history, religion was a postitive force. without it, we simply would not have survived.

i wrote my PhD dissertation ancient religious systems, so i know a little bit about it. you can continue to argue if you like, but it would be like a first year biology student who just admitted he doesn't understand genetics trying to argue with a tenured professor about the role of DNA in embryonic development