The Official Religious/Political Debate Thread (country, American, member, speakers)

[Thrice]

Use your knowledge.

Keep it clean.

[shadowsniper]

Hehe, Bush, what to say about Bush to stop beating around the Bush. Lets put it this way, I didnt listen to his 8 pm speech tonight because it hurts my brain to even hear him. Ask your selves comrades, what has he done in ur lives? Inforce the law? He hasnt fixed anything. Look at North Korea, they now have Nukes that can reach Alaska and Hawaii and with his new 3 stage missiles, N. Korea will reach all of western coast and maybe all of north america. Iran; what help has he done since the 1979 revolution? Nothing, they now almost have nukes them selves. Palestine...? Nothing, road map to peace was a disaster and Israel recently went into Gaza refugee camp and massacred a crowd in protest! Syria has sanctions now, for what? New terrorists that hate us? Iraq? Whats new? We tortured civilians that were probably not even guilty. Because of the patriot act we almost put a innocent American Muslim in jail. We found out that the finger prints were not his. We also shot up a second wedding party and we are trying to cover up the truth. What else can we find in our errors? Sanctions on cuba? Why? Because they are communist? Yet China is too and we love their toys. Where are the weapons of mass destruction? We now have a public that is divided because of lack of leader ship, if you can at least rebuttle this with dignity, then I will listen to u.

[Thrice]

Ha ha that was nice...i found myself asking me alot of questions.

[shadowsniper]

We can see a gradual trend in American politics. Its the elite that control the power structure of America. Who motivates the decisions in America? Its always the corporations! There is no coincidence! Why did we attack Iraq? Why Afghanistan? Well think for a second... Who creates bombs and planes? GE, Boeing, all these American companies that have workers that would otherwise not be hiring. Now we are in the middle of war and have young men dying. For what? For an increased inconomic booste? To win an election that is already doomed? Michael Moore is coming out with a new film, there has already been a public backlash from the right wing. New channels like Fox, that have nothing factual to debate or put on the table that is actually fresh. Last week I witnessed one of the best public speakers ever witnessed in my life; Andy Driver. An ex-SAS member. He spoke about how Fox faked some of their war reporting by not being near the front, while CNN was actually in the front lines. He knew this because he was there at Tora Bora, the place in Afghanistan where the Taliban revolted out of the prison. He witnessed first hand how corrupt the US media is getting and this is what is stewing up a right wing conservative view in america. Along with the religious fanaticism rising up in America as well. All this stewing up a mixture of hate towards mainly innoccent middle eastern immigrants that have become american.

[Thrice]

Nice.

Well put.

Very knowledgable. Thanks

[shadowsniper]

no problem bud. Ill be on here more often. When ever a new debate arises, never fear calling me over. I like debates, but I like learning from others as well. Anyways, I hope alot of people can rebute what I wrote, I am sure some can. I am not the smartest person on earth. All I want is to go into Quebecois politics and make Quebec its on nation.

[jibber]

nicely done shadowsniper. there was actually a huge debate on the war in iraq a few months ago, went to about 7 or 8 pages as I remember. I was watching a program on CNN a few weeks ago, might have been larry king, but i don't really remember. anyway, they had three political analyists, one a die hard conservative, one who was kind of in the middle, and one a pretty adamant democrat. During a discussion, the conservative voiced his opinions on the actual motives for going to war with iraq. now these aren't his exact words of course, but the general idea. "I agree with you that our government did not go to war on the sole purpose of helping those in iraq, we really don't care about the civillians of iraq. what we really needed was a base in the middle east from which we could develop a pro-american system and attempt to quell hostilities towards america from other nations in the middle east" again, I don't remember his exact wording, but I do KNOW that he said (word for word) "we really don't care about the civillians of iraq"a statement like that wouldn't easily be forgotten. Now of course most conservatives will completely deny this, saying they're main concern has always been and always will be the welfare of the iraqi people, but you have to wonder how true this is. Why now of all times did Bush suddenly feel a surge of compassion towards the iraqi people and decide to overthrow their brutal dictatorial government? because of alleged WMD's? well that's proven to be a bust. links to al queda? no remotely intelligent person can argue that hussein has ties with bin laden. threat to american security? when has hussein made a direct threat to america in recent memory? so that pretty much leave us with the possibility that Bush woke up one day feeling an immense feeling of sympathy for all those poor iraqi;s and decided to spend billions of dollars and end thousdands and thousands of american and iraqi lives to be a nice guy. something wrong with this picture? just maybe there were other perks in going into iraq, like the ability to establish a government with pro-american policies who will allow american corporations to run the oil business, or having a starting off point in the middle east from which to attempt to establish other pro-american governments. just look at other countries included in bush's "axis of evil" when the war in iraq was first proposed. syria, iran, and iraq. now lets think, what do all these countries have in common? all have regimes that are VERY anti-american, and all have pretty huge supplies of oil. ya, i'm sure bush is just concerned about the welfare of all the innocent little syrians and iranians too.

[IamAlejo]

Originally Posted by jibber

syria, iran, and iraq. now lets think, what do all these countries have in common? all have regimes that are VERY anti-american, and all have pretty huge supplies of oil.

America has helped out more countries than any other country on the map, often helping too much, and has led to our National Debt. It's not our own buying that has put us where we are. But the one thign that cracks me up...the "huge supply of oil". Yeah, we started this war for oil. Especially when we have oil in Alaska that we haven't cracked. Especially when Saudi Arabia has twice as much oil as Iraq. We decided we'd go to Iraq so we could get second most. Good point. [end sarcasm]. If the war was for oil, we would have totally destroyed everything, which in my point is almost the way to go now with all the resistance. We have been trying to help Iraqi civilians, setting up schools etc, but often they are the spots attacked by the refugees (since we'd least expect it) Often CNN and other news casts are run by Democrats, and FOX is run by Republicans. Very different news casts are on every night. I truly don't trust either 100%. But that's just me.

[shadowsniper]

Originally Posted by IamAlejo

America has helped out more countries than any other country on the map, often helping too much, and has led to our National Debt. It's not our own buying that has put us where we are. But the one thign that cracks me up...the "huge supply of oil". Yeah, we started this war for oil. Especially when we have oil in Alaska that we haven't cracked. Especially when Saudi Arabia has twice as much oil as Iraq. We decided we'd go to Iraq so we could get second most. Good point. [end sarcasm]. If the war was for oil, we would have totally destroyed everything, which in my point is almost the way to go now with all the resistance. We have been trying to help Iraqi civilians, setting up schools etc, but often they are the spots attacked by the refugees (since we'd least expect it) Often CNN and other news casts are run by Democrats, and FOX is run by Republicans. Very different news casts are on every night. I truly don't trust either 100%. But that's just me.

Inform your self before you say the US has helped out more countries than any other country has. Ok, first of all, you have the greatest economy! Of course France or Germany cant give as much as you. The thing that is a better index at telling if your helping out more is the percent of your GNP that your spending on aid to other nations. Compare that # to the % spent on defense, you will see where I am coming from. We spend more money on military than our own school and health system. I am from Canada and we have universal health care, we get more taxed for it, but thats also a reason we have more trouble sending help to other nations. Even if this stands true, we still have a larger % of our GNP sent to other nations in aid. I dont know what your refering to and if its the World Bank or IMF your speaking of, well let me tell you they arent part of the American Government and they are screwing up the world anyways.

What made you go in debt was not AID, we havent increased it!!! We werent in dept as much as we are now before. So if the aid has been a constant, whats the variable? OH!!! September 11th and the small depression we had and omg, let me guess, the WAR!!! We spend more than 1 billion, listen to those coins fall, not 1/2 a billion, but a billion dollars A WEEK on military operations in Iraq.

And if you want to go drill in Alaska, a place where you get much of your fish, well your the one who wants to eat mercury and oil filled fish. Go ahead, do that. The smartest thing you can do I guess. Alaska will not give us that much oil first of all and it wont benefit us in the long run because of the cost and effect of drilling there. You have to understand that the oil in Alaska needs a lot of refining to do while the oil in the middle east is just pumped up like having a straw in a drink. Alaskan oil is oil that has dirt and other residue in it.

There is a reason we didnt attack Saudi Arab! Why would u think that? OH, because we have like maybe just a little amount of soldiers and bases there. Even airport at that. They are our allies too. Weird, most of the Sept. 11 hijackers were Saudi. Hm, they are our allies? Yeah, we call them our allies. The family in rule are dictators, but we love them that way, just like we liked Saddam. Why would we make our intentions obvious? Lets just attack the second most and we wills till have alot of oil and we cant be blamed for our intentions because if oil was our main reason, than we would of attack Saudi Arabia. But wait, they are larger and more developed. They also have our weapons and they also havent been bomb the bejesus out of them for more than 10 years and they also dont have sanctions on them and they also didnt try to assassinate daddy bush and they also are not next to Iran, want me to continue? They also dont have WMD like we provided to Saddam and they also didnt shoot scuds at our little buddies the Jews. Want me to go on? My fingers are now starting to hurt, so I will progress to better things.

We destroyed everything? Hm, I thought that was before the war? Back when they didnt think of this grand plan. During the war I heard they tried not to shoot electrical plants and water system. Wherent the lights on in Baghdad while all hell broke loose and the bombs fell in "shock and awe"? I know your agreeing with me now, because thats what you said, you said they didnt destroy everything and they would of if we wanted oil. Ok, when you say everything, shooting or destroying every important building is not going to kill the people who are attacking us now. We are being attacked by dads, kids, and families. So if your solution was to just nuke the place and get ride of everything, then your just an idiot, but Ill be optimistic and assume you just generalized and didnt mean everything. Because you know that if you destroy many buildings or "everything" like you said, that includes the oil refineries we will need to REBUILD and SPEND AMERICAN TAX DOLLARS ON. So spending more money and time to destroy everything and rebuild everything, thats ur solution? I guess not. Your just saying we should now because people are shooting us from Mosques. So lets shoot the mosques like we did like 2 weeks ago and lets make 1 billion Muslims around the world pissed off at us more then they are already and make not 10,000 terrorist but 1 million or 2. Either way, ur arguement makes no sense and your being general.

So I guess the only reason to "attack" Iraq was to save the poor Iraqis then. Because we magically care for the citizens of a country we sanctioned for more than 10 years. Makes sense in ur head I guess. We like spending money on people we dont know and we have favorites now and I assume Iraqis are the only ones we want to help. Or we just want to start helping them then cure the plague and disease that we think is engraved in the minds of all those extremists. So we go there and have a foothold now in the arab land and now we can embark on our renewed crusade, like a born again christian. Then again we have Saudi Arabia, our little buddies, the ones who beat their whives and stone people. Those people arent suffering, we shouldnt help them, the Iraqis are suffering. Not those beat up whives.

So we are helping Iraqis so much, we really didnt expect them to attack back at us. No, for sure, we take their country and we expect them to be submissive. What is it with you man? If someone took the US, I would be mad too. Give me the gun and I will fight the infidels, of what ever you want ot call them. We do the same thing, but we go ravage other places that havent attacked us here. We first fought the infidels, then the communist, then those drug lords that we never seem to find and we always have more and more drugs, why not legalize them? Dont know really. Christians would flip like inverted crosses. Then we blame it on the "terrorists", the reasons for war always change and the intent always the same; conquest. This American nation is an empire that was based on good intentions but has grown sour. I pray that someone fixes this hate and destruction before we turn into something like the book 1984 speaks of. Fox news is just our telescreen. Let big brother (bush) speak to us directly with his radio and tv addresses. Nothing significant is spoken about but we always know that the enemy is on us and they are plotting and we must build more arms then them or attack them first before they do. Dont u see the similarities? We attacked the Taliban without credible proof! Dont get me wrong, I do think the Taliban helped Al-Qaeda, but I also look at the hypocrosy of judging before proven guilty approach we have to world politics. So anyways, I am out. Try to debate against the truth and die failing.

[shadowsniper]

Originally Posted by jibber

nicely done shadowsniper. there was actually a huge debate on the war in iraq a few months ago, went to about 7 or 8 pages as I remember. I was watching a program on CNN a few weeks ago, might have been larry king, but i don't really remember. anyway, they had three political analyists, one a die hard conservative, one who was kind of in the middle, and one a pretty adamant democrat. During a discussion, the conservative voiced his opinions on the actual motives for going to war with iraq. now these aren't his exact words of course, but the general idea. "I agree with you that our government did not go to war on the sole purpose of helping those in iraq, we really don't care about the civillians of iraq. what we really needed was a base in the middle east from which we could develop a pro-american system and attempt to quell hostilities towards america from other nations in the middle east" again, I don't remember his exact wording, but I do KNOW that he said (word for word) "we really don't care about the civillians of iraq"a statement like that wouldn't easily be forgotten. Now of course most conservatives will completely deny this, saying they're main concern has always been and always will be the welfare of the iraqi people, but you have to wonder how true this is. Why now of all times did Bush suddenly feel a surge of compassion towards the iraqi people and decide to overthrow their brutal dictatorial government? because of alleged WMD's? well that's proven to be a bust. links to al queda? no remotely intelligent person can argue that hussein has ties with bin laden. threat to american security? when has hussein made a direct threat to america in recent memory? so that pretty much leave us with the possibility that Bush woke up one day feeling an immense feeling of sympathy for all those poor iraqi;s and decided to spend billions of dollars and end thousdands and thousands of american and iraqi lives to be a nice guy. something wrong with this picture? just maybe there were other perks in going into iraq, like the ability to establish a government with pro-american policies who will allow american corporations to run the oil business, or having a starting off point in the middle east from which to attempt to establish other pro-american governments. just look at other countries included in bush's "axis of evil" when the war in iraq was first proposed. syria, iran, and iraq. now lets think, what do all these countries have in common? all have regimes that are VERY anti-american, and all have pretty huge supplies of oil. ya, i'm sure bush is just concerned about the welfare of all the innocent little syrians and iranians too.

That was a very very informative reply you had there. Thankx for the detail, I just want to add and modify a bit on what you said though. The only thing I dont agree on was that there are links with Al-Qaeda. Any remotely intelligent person will know that Iraq had no ties at all with Al-Qaeda. Several fundemental differences exist between Saddam and Osama. Its like comparing Hitler to Lenin. Know both of them have power, but their intentions are like night and day. Hussein was a secular person, religion was a means of control, not a reason to control. His sole purpose was to create a state in the middle east that was the leader of the arab people. He even let women go into universities to persue careers and he wasnt fundamental at all, he just wanted a modern arab state. The shining beacon upon a hill if you will. Hussein was helped into power by the US in the first place. He was given tons of weapons by not only Americans, but Europeans. He collected warcrafts from many countries actually. On a military airport you could see the best airpower from many countries that he purchased these items from. Example, he had French Mirage Jets, he had U.S.S.R. MIGs, he had American F-16, etc. He had T-72's and other tanks. Most of his firearms were Soviet as well; plenty of Ak-47 and Ak-74, as well as modified Ak's produced by the communist Chines. Hussein had the 4th largest standing army on earth before the Iran-Iraq war. The U.S. had suffered from the chaos produced from the overthrow of the US puppet in Iran (the Shah) that let the revolutionaries capture the US embassy and take hostage the diplomats there. The US tried a ops operation to save them but it was a disaster and the US hasnt talked to Iran from then on. So the US to take back on Iran gives and sells weapons to Iraq, these INCLUDE chemical weapons! At the same time, the US was trying to profit as much as they could, so instead of incouraging ONLY Iraq to win, they also sould Chemical and other weapons to Iran. So you can imagin the slaughter produced by such weapons and the aftermath of such a war. Iraq basically won but they hit a deal with Iran that made the war a stalemate. Iraq couldnt handle more casualties. So Hussein finds him self as no long being in such a great position, his glorious army couldnt over run the positioned Iranian army. His country was in debt now and the infrastructure was in ruins. All these countries that were supporting Hussein with oil before the war turned their backs on him. Hussein asked them to clear his debt for him like they did for the UK at some point I believe. Hussein created a rich country by kicking out all the American and other foreign companies out of his country that were taking his oil. He then nationalized the oil and made the country the most prosporous country in the middle east. Now we have to understand that there was not much oil coming out of Iraq because many of the oil rigs were damaged from the war and after the war Kuwait purposefully pumped a surplus of oil into the market, this created a downing of the prices and Iraq couldnt compete! Kuwait didnt want to clear the debt and Hussein even warned the US in advance that they will invade if Kuwait doesnt clear the debt. They ignored Hussein. Saddam had another intention in conquering Kuwait, he stated that Kuwait was a former Iraqi province. And it was! Kuwait was divided and taken away from Iraq when the British divided the land into mandates they controlled. So with his threat out and no opposition, he rolls into Kuwait and then the US realizes that soon enough, Hussein could even conquer Saudi Arabia if they wanted to and thus would have a virtual monopoly on the oil coming out of the middle east. "OH NO!!!" So to boost the US economy once more and impose friendly dictatorships in the middle east, the US leads an attack on Iraq land kuwaiti land. When I say "lead", they lead more with words then actions. The British actually were the forerunners in most battles because they were smart and used diesel on most of their war machines and this helped because the supply convoys only needed to bring one type of oil instead of many types of oil like the US had. The US oil also evaporated in heat, so here the US is in one of the hottest places on earth and they have evaporating oil. :S For the most part, this made them incapable of leading and so the UK took the lead. The US was only running 1/3 of what they thought they would and the UK was running the 3/3 that the US thought they would be running. Besides this technical stuff. What happened was that the US actually had support of the UN through a resolution and the US attacked. They "liberated" Kuwait from one dictator and imposed the another dictator. The US didnt want a major war, so they didnt push into Iraq much. Just enough to destroy most of their tanks. They used airplanes to bomb the Cra* out of Iraq though and they damaged alot of water pipes. Saddam claimed a victory because the US didnt move on and conquer Iraq. Later on, in 1998, the US restarted the bombing of Iraq because of WMD. So here we are. Hussein has a destroyed country, the water system is destroyed, the country has sanctions and the only way for the people to get food is by trading in REALLY REALLY cheap oil for food. So the US is profiting from this program of course and they are getting cheap oil, perfect! These sanctions kill around half a million kids and women though, to bad. They cant send any water pipes to fix things because these pipes can supposedly be used dually by not only getting water to homes but they can also be used to create atomic bombs. So we never let them have water instead and let them die. That really creates peace brothers, especially when a kid loses his family and the only murder in his eyes is the cause of the problem; the US. "There is nothing worst than someone who has nothing to lose." In 2003, we figure that Saddam is still a really bad guy and he still can afford WMD. Bushs dad was almost assassinated by Saddams' spies, so he has to pay. We dont mention how the US tried to kill Saddam many times. The same goes for Castro, we tried to kill him like 8 times. How paranoid would you get? No wonder the guy kills any dissenter. I probably would too. So now the US attacks and they win, OMG, WHAT SUPRISE! Never thought we would have such a victory against a 3rd world country. So bush embarks on that ship by landing on it with a jet. Im a warrior now, look at me daddy. So the gates come down, now what do we do? Well lets give kids candy like wwII. Well the kids love it, "yey, America". After there is no more candy around and after the kids have parents that die because of the looting and crisis after, they start taking up rifles. When US soldiers are kicking down doors and asking everyone to give up those weapons they cherished for years and are part of their culture. When troops get near their most religious sites. When the US doesnt protect everyone, doesnt give them proper money, food, water, electricity.