The Official Religious/Political Debate Thread (dancing, country, Tool, American)

[jibber]

Originally Posted by IamAlejo

Wow, you can't expect me to read anything about what you just said...though I will make an attempt. Where to start where to start.......

The reason I say that I don't care about a foreigners opinion (other than the fact that I don't) is that many of you are force fed opinions in your news of America and Americans. It is ridiculous what your news is, just as our news. All news tries to show the best (or worst) of things. The fact that I live in a military town (the biggest naval base in the world is around the corner) makes a lot of opportunities open for me to ask friends and others what is going on. The military (especially the higher up) know more about what's going on than you or I will ever know.....Next quote

Well, we did support Castro during his revolution. We wanted a change, and it didn't work out. So we aren't allowed to put sanctions on people? Like OPEC did back in the day? Everyone uses sanctions to try to put others in a situation, hoping we can incite a revolution of Castro, since we are against Communism. Cuba=Communist, so we aren't going to support them. Common Sense. You make it seem as if it is all about "OIL". Explain to me why we didn't attack Saudi Arabia, which has twice the oil. Maybe we weren't satisfied with the weapon inspections going on? You say news skips things, and we forget quickly. Possibly you are forgetting, we did find Long Range Missiles that Iraq was not supposed to have because of UN sanctions. But I guess it's the UN's fault, who are they to impose sanctions?

ok, i'm not even going to dignify the part about the opinions of people in foreign countries with an answer, because it was such an ignorant statement, but I will say this. Don't assume that you are the only person on this site who knows about the situation in iraq solely based on the fact that you happen to live on a military base. I'm positive that I know a lot more about the situation in the middle east, and possibly a lot more about american involvement, because I grew up on an american military base in Saudi Arabia, so I think that qualify's me to have an opinion. on to your next point. Apparently you couldn't be bothered to read shadowsniper's post, in which he gave a very accurate and informative account as to why the US will never initiate an attack on saudi arabia, so I will make this as simple and short as I can. Saudi Arabia has a lot of oil. American corporations hold a great deal of shares of the oil industry in saudi arabia. bombs in saudi arabia = america's economy going down the $hitter. if you need a more detailed account I would be happy to give a lot more information, but I have a lot of work to finish tonight and I want to keep this quick. and in closing, this thread really should be moved to the lounge, even though it was intended to be more about how music deals with the issue of american politics, it hasn't panned out, for better or for worse. actually I lied, my last point is actually this. I do generally agree more with democratic candidates, but in this particular matter, I don't believe kerry is a particularly good candidate. I think he's better than bush for sure, but that's not saying much, and I think its truly a tragedy that the most powerful nation in the world is forced to choose between the lesser of two evils so to speak. Now, on this ONE topic (ie the presidential election) you are entitled to say that my opinion doesn't matter, because I'm not a US citizen, but I will give my two cents. If you want Bush out of power, don't vote nadar, it will only take votes away from the democrats, so vote kerry. If you know you want bush out of power, but you truly believe that kerry is a horrible option, simply refuse your ballot. it will send a much clearer message than if you simply settle for the lesser of two evils. having said that, I'm actually going to end my post so I can get some work done.

[shadowsniper]

Originally Posted by jibber

ok, i'm not even going to dignify the part about the opinions of people in foreign countries with an answer, because it was such an ignorant statement, but I will say this. Don't assume that you are the only person on this site who knows about the situation in iraq solely based on the fact that you happen to live on a military base. I'm positive that I know a lot more about the situation in the middle east, and possibly a lot more about american involvement, because I grew up on an american military base in Saudi Arabia, so I think that qualify's me to have an opinion. on to your next point. Apparently you couldn't be bothered to read shadowsniper's post, in which he gave a very accurate and informative account as to why the US will never initiate an attack on saudi arabia, so I will make this as simple and short as I can. Saudi Arabia has a lot of oil. American corporations hold a great deal of shares of the oil industry in saudi arabia. bombs in saudi arabia = america's economy going down the $hitter. if you need a more detailed account I would be happy to give a lot more information, but I have a lot of work to finish tonight and I want to keep this quick. and in closing, this thread really should be moved to the lounge, even though it was intended to be more about how music deals with the issue of american politics, it hasn't panned out, for better or for worse. actually I lied, my last point is actually this. I do generally agree more with democratic candidates, but in this particular matter, I don't believe kerry is a particularly good candidate. I think he's better than bush for sure, but that's not saying much, and I think its truly a tragedy that the most powerful nation in the world is forced to choose between the lesser of two evils so to speak. Now, on this ONE topic (ie the presidential election) you are entitled to say that my opinion doesn't matter, because I'm not a US citizen, but I will give my two cents. If you want Bush out of power, don't vote nadar, it will only take votes away from the democrats, so vote kerry. If you know you want bush out of power, but you truly believe that kerry is a horrible option, simply refuse your ballot. it will send a much clearer message than if you simply settle for the lesser of two evils. having said that, I'm actually going to end my post so I can get some work done.

Nicely done Jibber. I wont write much. I just really agree with what you said and its really cool that you were born in, hm, I guess in the US if its on a US base? Well its cool that you have been in other places than just the US. I guess we can make another thread in the lounge, but I guess it should be about something else. We get the sense that alot of people dont agree with Bush but I just wanted to write a mammoth post about the history of it. Even though I am turning 18 in like 1 week, I know more than half the people older than me if not more. Waw, I sound arrogant. Done with that, lol. Its just sad to me. I dont know what the previous guy was bringing up though. He has no clue it seems and is pulling things out of his A$$. Twisted mentality for sure. Yeah, I would love to vote for Nader if I was American, but I wouldnt for this election. American politics are messed up, its not like other democratic countries where you have the primaries and then the top 2 go head to head. It makes it the "lesser of 2 evils" like that. So anyways, nice debate. Thankx Jibber, had good info by the way. Laterz.

[jibber]

i was actually born in canada, but moved to saudi arabia when i was really young, and don't remember anything before then, so I basically grew up there. living there definitely gave me a unique perspective on the subject, mainly because I was able to see not only how the US corporations opperated within the country and how they fit in with the local government (which in the very near future could collapse entirely, but thats another story) but i also got to see first hand alot of arab sentiment regarding the United states and other western countries. for the most part, the majority of arab muslims in the middle east have very negative feelings for america's government, but not their citizens. they know that government does not reflect the type of people actually living in the country, and are really very hospitable towards western ex-pats (ex patriats) and tourists. also, I got to see first hand the condidtions people are living in in countries all over the middle east. you simply can't have an idea how brutally repressive these regimes are unless you've seen it first hand, it's absolutely sickening. I can't tell you how much I feel for the people living under those regimes (i luckly escaped this, living on an american base). another thing that you really notice is how militant the countries in that region are. if you think the united states is over the top with gun ownership, you'd be shocked. Around my elementary school there were heavily armed guards (AKA-47 assault rifels usually) accompanied by trained bomb-dectecting dogs. and this was around an elementary school, plus the 10 foot tall concrete barriers to stop truck bombs. outside the complex, there were heavily armed checkpoints with more armed guards to make sure the right people got in and out of the complex. now of course all this security was implemented by the american military, but it was very reflective of the type of environment. outside the complex, the mall security was equipped with AKA-47 assault rifels (they seemed to like those) and it was very rare for the men not to own and/or carry guns. of course the women have absolutely no rights whatsoever, to the point where its absolutely disgusting. living there was basically like living in another universe, so needless to say it was really difficult for me to adjist back to life in canada after we moved. the reason we moved was pretty much because my parents got antsy after the Kobar towers were bombed in 1996. Al-Kobar, a city about 15 minutes away fro the complex where I lived, had a huge apartment complex (accross the street from my dad's office building) which housed hundreds of american soldiers (and soldiers from other counrties) still there from the gulf war. terrorists targeted these towers (i'm pretty sure it was an al-queda cell) and over a hundred people were killed. it was the scariest day of my life coming to school the next morning and hearing nothing but "did you hear the bomb go off last night?" anyways, that's pretty much my childhood, (which for all the uglyness i've described was actually really great). kinda rambled a bit, but hey, couldn't help myself. (now i'm really screwed for homework, looks like another night with very little sleep for me).

[brokenheartsandfallenhero]

lol jibber I know what you mean about the lack of sleep DAMN YOU MUSIC BANTER YOU WILL BE THE END OF ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[IamAlejo]

God, I try to avoid this but I can't.

You say that America holds a great deal of shares of the oil corporations...so why would we attack Iraq for more oil? The whole oil part of things is what pisses me off. In the end, if we don't turn the oil wells back over to Iraqi companies than I will talk of my mistake, until then, it's a hushed topic.

Second, I truly don't see how any AMERICAN can have sympathy for the Iraqis. The same Iraqis who were dancing in the streets of Baghdad after the 9/11 bombings. Remember, that was the act of war which got everything started. But I guess that is Bush's fault for not jumping in front of the plant?

Third, you guys jump on my back like I'm a Bush fanatic. I truly don't think his presidency is a great one. But when I look on things, I can say that I believe he has handled things better than (in my opinion) Kerry, Gore, or even Nader would have. The one thing people need to notice, Terrorism is not a Crime, It is an Act of War. Gore would treat it like crime, just as Kerry would, arresting those who did it and punishing them. What Bush has done, and what you might disagree with, is that he has put the Terrorists on the defensive. Anyone see terrorist attacks on US Soil recently? No, they have the terrorists trying to protect themselves.

I agree, it is hard to see how everything is going now, and eventually we will see when everything "pans out" in the end. I don't think you can judge the actions of Bush now, but much later down (15-20 or so years). I'm gonna try my hardest not post again, because I can see this as you not wanting to change your point of view, and me not willing to change mine.

[shadowsniper]

Originally Posted by IamAlejo

God, I try to avoid this but I can't.

You say that America holds a great deal of shares of the oil corporations...so why would we attack Iraq for more oil? The whole oil part of things is what pisses me off. In the end, if we don't turn the oil wells back over to Iraqi companies than I will talk of my mistake, until then, it's a hushed topic.

Second, I truly don't see how any AMERICAN can have sympathy for the Iraqis. The same Iraqis who were dancing in the streets of Baghdad after the 9/11 bombings. Remember, that was the act of war which got everything started. But I guess that is Bush's fault for not jumping in front of the plant?

Third, you guys jump on my back like I'm a Bush fanatic. I truly don't think his presidency is a great one. But when I look on things, I can say that I believe he has handled things better than (in my opinion) Kerry, Gore, or even Nader would have. The one thing people need to notice, Terrorism is not a Crime, It is an Act of War. Gore would treat it like crime, just as Kerry would, arresting those who did it and punishing them. What Bush has done, and what you might disagree with, is that he has put the Terrorists on the defensive. Anyone see terrorist attacks on US Soil recently? No, they have the terrorists trying to protect themselves.

I agree, it is hard to see how everything is going now, and eventually we will see when everything "pans out" in the end. I don't think you can judge the actions of Bush now, but much later down (15-20 or so years). I'm gonna try my hardest not post again, because I can see this as you not wanting to change your point of view, and me not willing to change mine.

The thing you have to understand is that Iraqi's arent the terrorist and I dont know how in the world we got this image of Iraqi terrorist. The reason terrorist are in the country now is because they see a killing frenzy and they are joing in by killing Americans and trying to get as much propaganda as possible. This war has done more for terrorism then against it. The terrorist arent on the defense. You cant beat terrorism, hardly. All they do is go lay low while bombs drop and hide. How can you fight an invisible enemy. They arent on defense they are still waiting as much as they were before september 11th. We have a new terrorist alert now. Are we winning? Iraqis dancing in the streets. Well just because a handful of Iraqis are dancing in the street (also take note that Saddam was in power and he forced people to do such demonstrations) doesnt make them terrorist. Alot of people thought the US deserved such a punishment. We dont recognize the stuff we do until people lash out, thats our problem and then we are blinded and fight back and kill random innocent people and then we get more terrorism. Thats the problem.

[IamAlejo]

I'm not gonna say that all Iraqi's are terrorists, but to say that Iraq wasn't housing terrorists, nor supporting them, is a joke. And truly, no one will know whether it is a good decision until later on down the road.

[shadowsniper]

Originally Posted by IamAlejo

I'm not gonna say that all Iraqi's are terrorists, but to say that Iraq wasn't housing terrorists, nor supporting them, is a joke. And truly, no one will know whether it is a good decision until later on down the road.

So if we dont know till later on, your saying we are going in blindly and guessing at the outcome. Hehe, ok, great defense. You dont have any proof they housed terrorists and supported them. Its not a joke, I am serious too. Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iran, those countries have proven links to terrorism and we didnt do anything about them. So I dont understand where your coming from or what facts you have to prove your link and claim.

[IamAlejo]

Where is your proof that they didn't. You are going blindly saying that this will be a terrible outcome. A lot of things are based on belief and on the final outcome. Hate to sound like Makaveli, but the ends justify the means.

[brokenheartsandfallenhero]

Ok alejo you cant criticize Iraq for housing terrorists unless you can tell me one country that doesn't, and please dont say America, I dont like laughing so hard that I vomit!!