The Official Religious/Political Debate Thread (dancing, country, house, American)

[Who_Cares]

My fantasy/sci-fi Lit teacher was telling me about this book written by a retired teacher in NY called Dumbing Us Down , although i can't remember his name. But anyways, the teacher was awarded the teacher of the year award for the entire state of NY the year he retired. Afterwards he wrote this book which basically says that the government is intentionally restricting education so we all become sheep for the elections and everything. I thought that this was very interesting, because a respected educator wrote it and it also shows a reason why many Americans follow and support the war in Iraq without really knowing anything about it what-so-ever.... especially the people in my stupid ass hick town! LOL

[shadowsniper]

Originally Posted by Who_Cares

My fantasy/sci-fi Lit teacher was telling me about this book written by a retired teacher in NY called Dumbing Us Down , although i can't remember his name. But anyways, the teacher was awarded the teacher of the year award for the entire state of NY the year he retired. Afterwards he wrote this book which basically says that the government is intentionally restricting education so we all become sheep for the elections and everything. I thought that this was very interesting, because a respected educator wrote it and it also shows a reason why many Americans follow and support the war in Iraq without really knowing anything about it what-so-ever.... especially the people in my stupid ass hick town! LOL

Nice. I agree. I also have to state how I find that the south is way more christianized, but in a bad way, in a more fundamentalist way. Alot of them voted for Bush because he is a "born again" christian and I think that most major cities shelter more intellectuals than the south "hick" towns. I know I live in the south. I recently dated one of those fundamental people, o god save me.

[shadowsniper]

Originally Posted by brokenheartsandfallenhero

Whoa whoa whoa our helping other countries has not led to natonal debt our economic problem began in 1913 when the federal reserve banking system was created by Alridge, that is a private banking system that the american government borrows money from all the time so they can fund these unconstitutional agencies and departments. Also I agree that the whole reason we are in Iraq is not for oil, no we are there becasue in Bush's childish mind he is walking in Daddy Bush's footsteps, or somebody in Iraq pissed off a rockerfeller,rothchild,or Kennedy and as far as great presidents whose to judge? The american people who have been blinded by media and "patriotic acts" it is humorus to me that we can look back at John Brown with views of a patriot and with sorrow but look at Robert E. Lee as a biggot and murderer. But this is because our educational system is controlled by socialist bastards that were allowed in this country in the 1800s thinking they could better our government with the kissing cousin of communism and are now dumbing down americas youth so that free choice is a thing of the past and there is now more freedom, just contentment.

Nice!!! Actual referencing. Good points but I also have to disagree with something, but I wont argue it because we arent discussing this subject anyways.

I just dont agree about socialist bing the cause of problems here. I am a socialist and I have to also point my finger to the European nations right now under a socialistic government and the standards of education they have. They top any of our schools and they have free universities. I dont really see the negative in that. I just dont think the poor should not be allowed to have free schooling and health, I think those are universal and a privilege of the state. Anyways, sorry. Good points though.

[shadowsniper]

continued...


Some revolt, not many, but then things pick up. Falluga decides to up the anti, Sadr decides to releave them a bit by revolting too. Baghday citizens have to drive to falluga to give the needed food and water because the city is being besieged by american tanks. So there is a deal, Falluga is no longer in siege, but at a price. Those generals in charge of the city before the war, well those same ones are put back in place to take charge and help the people. These same Generals are not talking behind americas back and fighting them. Solution huh? Temporarly, same as whats going around all of Iraq and same as whats going on in the US. This is all a temporary conflict to create fear in us and have Bush be the "father" figure. Sounds like hitler to me. The guy we put in place to take charge of things, well we recently figured out he was a crook. Oh, not only that, but he supposedly gave Iran secret information, that is so sensitive that it can get Americans killed. Iran has over 14,000 spies in the country. We abused detainees now, we shot up another wedding party. We are breaking international laws. The world hates us because we are arrogant as much as a French man (I am one by the way and no I am not arrogant, I am from Canada) and now we are calling on the world to fix our problem. To go out of their way and pay for us and give us troops, to save our master plan to ruling the middle east politically and economically. Cuba got rid of the US in their revolution and now they have a country with only their own businesses, but we couldnt handle that so we put sanctions on them. Not even a month ago, we put sanctions on Syria as well. So whats going to happen? Well, Ill tell you whats going to happen. The same reason the US put Saddam in power (to stop Iran from spreading its borders into a shiite country like Iraq -Iran is shiite majority as is Iraq- and making a Shiite superpower that takes over Sunni countries like Saudi Arabia that has alot of oil), well this same reason that we put him in power and then we decided to take charge our own selves because he wouldnt listen, well we are failing at it. We we lose, what will probably happen is that Iran takes over Iraq and then we have a greater problem. What would then happen is that Iran will actually get a Nuke, not Iraq, no brother, you have been lied too. Then Iran gets long range ballistic missiles from North Korea. Oh yeah, we forgot about them because they have no oil. We are even taking troops out of South Korea now, because we are out of troops for Iraq, because countries are now realizing they have been lied to and they are taking their troops back. Spain, Dominican Republic, Honduras, and other nations have taken their troops out and other nations are threatening to take them out. We had Iran surrounded by both sides like we wanted (Iraq on western front, Iran in the middle, Afghanistan on eastern front), but now we are losing that. The Taliban are actually killing US soldiers almost daily but the news isnt covering it because they dont want to lose focus. Why do you think the beheading was made a big deal out of? Because we had news about torture that stained our image. Daniel Pearl, remember him, though u didnt, he was the journalist that was beheaded, oh yeah, they didnt say that on the news, they just said executed. Trust me he was behead, I have the video. We didnt speak out in outrage then, only when we see fit. Well, when Iraq falls, Iran is the country I think will take over for sure. Afghanistan, maybe Taliban, if not, then certainly Iran. So what do we have now? A country that hates us (Iran) and a country we hate having much more power and oil now! YEY. I am done, tired of writing. Just check the news everyday, its fun when your informed and this was the closest history lesson your probably going to get out of a person since you live in America and schools are cencosered. Bye

[shadowsniper]

ok, I am out, I posted past the exceeded limit, thats when you know you rambled on and on. Sorry peeps. Later.

[jibber]

holy crap shadowsniper that was hell of alot of writing. awesome points there. now on to alejo. i think the phrase "if you're not from america you can't offer an opinion" should be banned from these forums. do you actually think thats a valid argument? that's a nice conveinient way of trying to shut down any intelligent opposition of your opinions, but it doesn't work, it just makes your following arguments seem weak and pathetic. news flash, the entire friggen 1st world knows what goes on in the US, thats one of the effects of things like the interenet and television. sure the media is biased, but there is no reason for why the opinions of non-americans are less valid than those of americans, so just stop saying that, seriously, its gotten old. FYI, I made a mistake about the guy that wrote that book, got two books mixed up. I was thinking of an ex CIA agent who worked for the clinton admin, and then was fired. this guy was an independent journalist who interviewed everyone in the bush admin (privately, no cameras or other people present) including bush and wrote about the interviews in the book. it's called plan of attack by bob woodward, read i if you get the chance. another point, oil in alaska. contrary to popular belief, there's not all that much oil in there, certainly not nearly as much as is in iraq, syria or iran. plus, in case you haven't noticed, the world's oil supply isn't unlimited, and now more than ever there are more demands for stakes in the worlds oil supply. used to be that the US and a few other developed countries in the world were the main consumers of the world's oil supply. other countries used it of course, but nothing compared to the amount used by the US. now that many undeveloped countries are begining to strengthen their economy, they're wanting the same quality of life we have. china is one of these countries, with its huge population, once a substantial portion of their population attains enough money, there's going to be a huge demand on oil that simply isn't there at the moment. one expert predicted (can't remember his name at the moment, i'll get back to you on it) that by the year 2024, china's economy will be the strongest in the world. this means billions more people are going to want to buy cars, which means they'll need oil. so don't you think that the US would want to gain control over that as much as possible before that happens? and one more point, the whole issue of iraq did not come up after 9/11. there are documented meetings in which the bush admin discussed going to war with iraq, long before the attacks of 9/11 and long before terrorism was a huge issue in US politics.

[shadowsniper]

Originally Posted by jibber

holy crap shadowsniper that was hell of alot of writing. awesome points there. now on to alejo. i think the phrase "if you're not from america you can't offer an opinion" should be banned from these forums. do you actually think thats a valid argument? that's a nice conveinient way of trying to shut down any intelligent opposition of your opinions, but it doesn't work, it just makes your following arguments seem weak and pathetic. news flash, the entire friggen 1st world knows what goes on in the US, thats one of the effects of things like the interenet and television. sure the media is biased, but there is no reason for why the opinions of non-americans are less valid than those of americans, so just stop saying that, seriously, its gotten old. FYI, I made a mistake about the guy that wrote that book, got two books mixed up. I was thinking of an ex CIA agent who worked for the clinton admin, and then was fired. this guy was an independent journalist who interviewed everyone in the bush admin (privately, no cameras or other people present) including bush and wrote about the interviews in the book. it's called plan of attack by bob woodward, read i if you get the chance. another point, oil in alaska. contrary to popular belief, there's not all that much oil in there, certainly not nearly as much as is in iraq, syria or iran. plus, in case you haven't noticed, the world's oil supply isn't unlimited, and now more than ever there are more demands for stakes in the worlds oil supply. used to be that the US and a few other developed countries in the world were the main consumers of the world's oil supply. other countries used it of course, but nothing compared to the amount used by the US. now that many undeveloped countries are begining to strengthen their economy, they're wanting the same quality of life we have. china is one of these countries, with its huge population, once a substantial portion of their population attains enough money, there's going to be a huge demand on oil that simply isn't there at the moment. one expert predicted (can't remember his name at the moment, i'll get back to you on it) that by the year 2024, china's economy will be the strongest in the world. this means billions more people are going to want to buy cars, which means they'll need oil. so don't you think that the US would want to gain control over that as much as possible before that happens? and one more point, the whole issue of iraq did not come up after 9/11. there are documented meetings in which the bush admin discussed going to war with iraq, long before the attacks of 9/11 and long before terrorism was a huge issue in US politics.

Hats off to you. Yeah, its Bob that wrote the book, my friend has it and I read exerpts. China is growing so fast actually that the government is trying to slow it down because an economy that is out of control could create inflation or it could just explode and create a great depression afterwards. A large reason for oil being low right now is because of China actually and I am really tired of the whining about the gas. In England its more than 5 dollars a gallon and other nations have it worst. Chinas military is also a major concert to the US. I dont think its that big of an issue. I just say, stay out of their way and if they want Taiwan back, dont fight them about it. I think countries ultimatly want peace but some have immidiate needs they want to fullfil, but of course we cant make mistakes for dictators like Hitler, some countries want power and all powers at all means. I dont think there are many such countries in our world right now like that, other then Bush.

I also heard about those meetings they had. Cheney, Rumsfeld and I think Bush were part of an organization that met to talk about how to secure Americans future and one of their documents spoke about taking over a middle easter oil country.

[IamAlejo]

Wow, you can't expect me to read anything about what you just said...though I will make an attempt. Where to start where to start.......

Hussein was a secular person, religion was a means of control, not a reason to control. His sole purpose was to create a state in the middle east that was the leader of the arab people. He even let women go into universities to persue careers and he wasnt fundamental at all, he just wanted a modern arab state.

That's why he gassed his own people? A wonderful man....Please don't talk about how wonderful a man Hussein is, it flaunts your ignorance.

The reason I say that I don't care about a foreigners opinion (other than the fact that I don't) is that many of you are force fed opinions in your news of America and Americans. It is ridiculous what your news is, just as our news. All news tries to show the best (or worst) of things. The fact that I live in a military town (the biggest naval base in the world is around the corner) makes a lot of opportunities open for me to ask friends and others what is going on. The military (especially the higher up) know more about what's going on than you or I will ever know.....Next quote

Cuba got rid of the US in their revolution and now they have a country with only their own businesses, but we couldnt handle that so we put sanctions on them.

Well, we did support Castro during his revolution. We wanted a change, and it didn't work out. So we aren't allowed to put sanctions on people? Like OPEC did back in the day? Everyone uses sanctions to try to put others in a situation, hoping we can incite a revolution of Castro, since we are against Communism. Cuba=Communist, so we aren't going to support them. Common Sense. You make it seem as if it is all about "OIL". Explain to me why we didn't attack Saudi Arabia, which has twice the oil. Maybe we weren't satisfied with the weapon inspections going on? You say news skips things, and we forget quickly. Possibly you are forgetting, we did find Long Range Missiles that Iraq was not supposed to have because of UN sanctions. But I guess it's the UN's fault, who are they to impose sanctions?

[shadowsniper]

Originally Posted by IamAlejo

Wow, you can't expect me to read anything about what you just said...though I will make an attempt. Where to start where to start.......

That's why he gassed his own people? A wonderful man....Please don't talk about how wonderful a man Hussein is, it flaunts your ignorance.

The reason I say that I don't care about a foreigners opinion (other than the fact that I don't) is that many of you are force fed opinions in your news of America and Americans. It is ridiculous what your news is, just as our news. All news tries to show the best (or worst) of things. The fact that I live in a military town (the biggest naval base in the world is around the corner) makes a lot of opportunities open for me to ask friends and others what is going on. The military (especially the higher up) know more about what's going on than you or I will ever know.....Next quote

Well, we did support Castro during his revolution. We wanted a change, and it didn't work out. So we aren't allowed to put sanctions on people? Like OPEC did back in the day? Everyone uses sanctions to try to put others in a situation, hoping we can incite a revolution of Castro, since we are against Communism. Cuba=Communist, so we aren't going to support them. Common Sense. You make it seem as if it is all about "OIL". Explain to me why we didn't attack Saudi Arabia, which has twice the oil. Maybe we weren't satisfied with the weapon inspections going on? You say news skips things, and we forget quickly. Possibly you are forgetting, we did find Long Range Missiles that Iraq was not supposed to have because of UN sanctions. But I guess it's the UN's fault, who are they to impose sanctions?

First of all. His own people? Well if your concidering Kurds his own people... Kurds dont even concider them selves Iraqi. They are the largest ethnic group on earth without a nation. They happily would take over north Iraq to try to create their own nation. Why do you think Hussein gassed them? Because they revolted against him. No one has been able to impose law in Iraq before and they revolted against the British in 1920.

I present to you facts and you make it sounds like I am justifying him or making him sound great. If the facts are more justifying of his actions or make him seem better, maybe its because you had such a devilish view of him that when you hear something a little better then you think they are trying to make him sound like a god. Of course he is horrible, he tortured people. He would put explosive packages on people and blow them up in the middle of the desert (I know, I have video of it), he would tie people on poles and have firing squads shoot at them (I also have references to that), why dont try to twist my perceptions to try to make people think I am a Nazi, fascist or any other negative attachments. I at least support things with facts and dont present much opinion. Whos flaunting ignorance?

So if you think foreigners dont know much because they dont live here, how can you do the same and think they are force fed information? Do you watch their news? How do you know this? Please dont talk about others doing something you dont like and then do it; dont be a hypocrit.

Why dont you try to also see you are listening to propaganda your self, not from volentary news medias, but by government agencies like the military. Which one has more twisted reports? The military sells out wars and justifies them selves to try to make their soldiers moral higher. How dramatic would it be if a soldier totally didnt want to fight. If the news is negative, thats maybe because the negative is more important. Good news is there to be bathed in, bad news is presented to be fixed. Obviously there is alot of fixing to do recently. If you want to live in ignorance, thats fine. I dont though. If they are bad and you cant say something back by facts to oppose it, then its because its true.

The higher ups know about military operations, they dont know much about politics, economics, justifications, or other things that are more retrospective and wide.

With Castro, well we didnt want change in Cuba before. We already did that, it was during the Spanish-American war! If baptista was there, its our own fault. He was as worst or worst than Castro. So I guess your solution is to starve people into having a revolution? I think it does the opposite, it makes people hate the country impossing sanctions. Its always showed as superficial problems. Its simple, you dont like communist because they wont suck up to you, not because you care for their people. America doesnt really care for other people than its own interest. Why would they, I wouldnt really care for other peoples around the world if I was president, well not really, I would, but I have priorities. Its common sense. Why do we "support" or not have sanctions on China? They are communist... According to you, we should have sanctions on them too. Well they dont, why? Because they bring in the cash.

Dont ask me why we didnt attack Saudi Arabia, I already had like 3 paragraphs on all of that. If your open and want to learn, I suggest you stop being lazy and read my previous posts, why I posted so much is because I need to straighten things out. I see alot of superficial facts being brought up and the truth is never investigated. Go read now if you want to continue a debate on subjects like Saudi Arabia.

We werent satisfied with inspections in Iraq because they didnt have any. We were maybe convinced they had some because we only listened to these people who are from there that were interested in creating a war in their own profit. That truck container that was supposedly making chemical weapons was actually a farming truck for insectacides. Those barrels you found were also the same, I know, I could read the french labels on them. Maybe you could hire translators. Even your inspectors cant find the WMD. Of course they were probably hidding stuff, how would you react if a country that was going to attack you soon was checking out all our strategic stuff. So let me guess, we are going to take all your weapons away and we will then attack you... How do you want them to react?

I didnt forget those missiles he wasnt supposed to have. I am not an idiot and I dont have this problem with forgetting things like that. What did Saddam order when we found them? Maybe your forgetting. He slowly started destroying ALL of them. Oh, but then you still attacked and he couldnt use them against you. So that was smart of him I guess... The UN has no power any more, we can see how America has their finger on the UN. The UN couldnt stop your illegal war, how much power do u think they have. All these UN sanctions are because of how you control the whole Security Council. Anyways, sorry if I sounded like I am blaming Americans, I am not. I am blaming this administration. I live in America and I love it. I have nice friends and there are alot of nice people. Just a couple redneck ignorant people who live for the army and navy, and military might of this nation. Like those who support that star wars system. Its a stupid system that will fail when 1000 missiles are launched at once and only one of them contains a actual nuke and we can only destroy 10% of them. Anyways. To you now chap.

[jibber]

Originally Posted by IamAlejo

Wow, you can't expect me to read anything about what you just said...though I will make an attempt. Where to start where to start.......

The reason I say that I don't care about a foreigners opinion (other than the fact that I don't) is that many of you are force fed opinions in your news of America and Americans. It is ridiculous what your news is, just as our news. All news tries to show the best (or worst) of things. The fact that I live in a military town (the biggest naval base in the world is around the corner) makes a lot of opportunities open for me to ask friends and others what is going on. The military (especially the higher up) know more about what's going on than you or I will ever know.....Next quote

Well, we did support Castro during his revolution. We wanted a change, and it didn't work out. So we aren't allowed to put sanctions on people? Like OPEC did back in the day? Everyone uses sanctions to try to put others in a situation, hoping we can incite a revolution of Castro, since we are against Communism. Cuba=Communist, so we aren't going to support them. Common Sense. You make it seem as if it is all about "OIL". Explain to me why we didn't attack Saudi Arabia, which has twice the oil. Maybe we weren't satisfied with the weapon inspections going on? You say news skips things, and we forget quickly. Possibly you are forgetting, we did find Long Range Missiles that Iraq was not supposed to have because of UN sanctions. But I guess it's the UN's fault, who are they to impose sanctions?

ok, i'm not even going to dignify the part about the opinions of people in foreign countries with an answer, because it was such an ignorant statement, but I will say this. Don't assume that you are the only person on this site who knows about the situation in iraq solely based on the fact that you happen to live on a military base. I'm positive that I know a lot more about the situation in the middle east, and possibly a lot more about american involvement, because I grew up on an american military base in Saudi Arabia, so I think that qualify's me to have an opinion. on to your next point. Apparently you couldn't be bothered to read shadowsniper's post, in which he gave a very accurate and informative account as to why the US will never initiate an attack on saudi arabia, so I will make this as simple and short as I can. Saudi Arabia has a lot of oil. American corporations hold a great deal of shares of the oil industry in saudi arabia. bombs in saudi arabia = america's economy going down the $hitter. if you need a more detailed account I would be happy to give a lot more information, but I have a lot of work to finish tonight and I want to keep this quick. and in closing, this thread really should be moved to the lounge, even though it was intended to be more about how music deals with the issue of american politics, it hasn't panned out, for better or for worse. actually I lied, my last point is actually this. I do generally agree more with democratic candidates, but in this particular matter, I don't believe kerry is a particularly good candidate. I think he's better than bush for sure, but that's not saying much, and I think its truly a tragedy that the most powerful nation in the world is forced to choose between the lesser of two evils so to speak. Now, on this ONE topic (ie the presidential election) you are entitled to say that my opinion doesn't matter, because I'm not a US citizen, but I will give my two cents. If you want Bush out of power, don't vote nadar, it will only take votes away from the democrats, so vote kerry. If you know you want bush out of power, but you truly believe that kerry is a horrible option, simply refuse your ballot. it will send a much clearer message than if you simply settle for the lesser of two evils. having said that, I'm actually going to end my post so I can get some work done.