The Official Religious/Political Debate Thread (country, single, American, cover)

[IamAlejo]

Originally Posted by David Frost

there are over 50 examples that have been reported and quoted in which george w bush has "flip flopped". i hear everyone call kerry this term but never with anything other than the bull**** 87 billion vote to back this up.

You want another example? Sure, that's what I'm here for. What about during the debates, when Kerry stated that Bush was letting his Religion and religious views play too big a role in his Presidency.

One week later, Kerry makes a speech inside a Church saying that he believes that our nation needs to have better Religious Morals and live our lifes based closer on Religion.

That sir, is an example of a flip flop.

He is for abortions, yet he is Catholic, and Catholics are pro-life. So again, a flip flop.

He wrote a book with a picture of the USA flag upside down on it, yet now he is running for Presidency of that country.

He believes that the wealthy should have tax increases, yet when his tax forms were recently checked, a box which can be checked in order to give MORE money to the government (optional money), his box was not checked. If he believes the wealthy should pay more money, why is he not more willing?

Maybe I'll put some more on later, but hopefully you understand my point.

And if you want to talk about lies, why don't you go check out a movie that I'm sure you worship..."Farenheit 911". Recently it was found out and documented in a new movie that 75% of the movie was lies/incorrect.

[IamAlejo]

Originally Posted by franscar

Yes, but Bush said there WERE WMD in Iraq, he even named thirteen sites where he had EVIDENCE of the production of WMD's. He's spent the last year furiously back tracking. He said, before the war, that there were WMD's in that country, and he has not found them. He lied in order to start a false war.



Hussein gave no aid whatsoever to Al-Qaeda. Sure there were training camps within Iraq, but there are Al-Qaeda training camps in Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Bali, Saudi Arabia, the UK and the USA as well. Bush said that there was a link between Hussain and 9/11, and he's never given any evidence to the international community to back that up.

There is evidence of Hussein aids giving funds to Al-Qaeda. Your quote says nothing about 9/11...it says that Bush states they are "connected"...which they are. I'm going by what you wrote, so obviously you have to make yourself a little clearer.

Before the war, it is likely that there were WMD's in the country. We let them have their time making fools out of the UN Weapon Inspectors and then played the "You better stop, because we'll invade" for about 6 months. They had more than enough time to rid themselves/move any weapons.

If lied to, who do you think would feel the worst about it? I have a guess...maybe the MILITARY TROOPS OVER IN IRAQ FIGHTING. They are the most directly effected by it, and it's interesting, because a poll was just done on the military. When asked who they were voting for, roughly 68% said they are voting for Bush. I guess they didn't feel as "lied" to as you do.

[IamAlejo]

Some more Kerry flip-flops...since I just am feeling like Helping You Guys Lack of Politics

Kerry says he wants to strengthen our nation's military and intelligence, yet he says he voted to cut military and our intelligence spending.

He calls himself a "man of the people"...yet is in a wealthy patrician family.

In 1992, when President Clinton's dodging of service was being questioned, Kerry was quoted as saying on the Senate floor (a miracle that he showed up) "We do not need to divide America over who served and how." Amazing, almost every commercial I've seen talks about how great his military service is and how it is so important.

Kerry, in an effort to get the Cuban vote, was talking to a crown in Florida talking about how tough he was/is on Castro. Talking about Helms-Burton legislation, which was tough on companies dealing with Castro, he talked about how he voted to pass the bill. Only problem, he voted AGAINST the bill while in senate.

I'm sure you won't read any of this, just come up with a witty comeback, so I'll stop now.

[David Frost]

wow.. kerry makes some misquotes and poor speaking decisions. bush attacks a country that shouldnt have been attacked.

its a sad state when people cant even see BASIC facts.

Since bush has become president, the world is CLOSER to nuclear war

North Korea HAS nuclear weapons, they didnt before.

IRAN and Saudi Arabia are harboring more terrorists than ever. under bush, will we
ever take action against against the saudis? answer, no.

The war in iraq is NOT the war on terror.

over 48 percent of americans believe that Saddam Hussien was directly related to 9/11. why? because our beloved president lied.

there have not been any WMDs found. according to a recent report, no wmds were found and Hussien stopped his nuclear weapons program years and years ago. Bush's answer.. he was preparing to start developing them again. well, what about north korea? ohh well..

im not pro kerry, im just pro anyone not bush

[IamAlejo]

Iraq had been attacked in the past, and Hussein was needed out of power. The fact is that the country deserved to be attacked, should have been attacked, and is being attacked. If I can find one thing that I fault Bush for is the way he attacked it poorly, but you can also blame the military advisors on that one.

The fact is, that as time goes on, technology is going to advance to less developed countries. There is proof of Clinton giving the knowledge of how to make the Nuclear Weapons to Koreans and Chinese, so do you not fault him? No, you are trying to put the blame on someone.

You just ignored every single thing I wrote, which I knew you would. Because you can't respond to the FACTS I put, so you write down more biased opinions.

When was the date of the 48% believing Hussein was responsible? Do you have one? Or do you pull numbers out of your ass? Do you even think all the facts on 9/11 are out yet? Hell no, it could take years for everything to come out, and to just go off of what is out now is silly. Iraq WAS a threat, and the threat was taken care of.

What is your opinion on the illegal long distance missiles we found in Iraq? The ones that Iraq was banned from having due to UN sanctions? I'm just asking, because you seem to think that it is no big deal.

Also, I believe Iran will be taken care of in due time. Saudi Arabia, which I agree, is too powerful and influential for ANY President to do anything with.

[David Frost]

i dont have the time to deal with this all right now, i will soon.. but if you truley think bush will take care of iran, why do they endorse him right now?

as far as your facts go. they are far from the intensity of bushes faults. kerry talks about his military records in an incorrect manner (i wont even bring up bushs record, or lack thereof). but bush uses propaganda to fuel an unjust war. thats all there is to it. saddam has been caught, iraq is in a much worse state than it is in now. however, osama bin laden is still at large, why havent you brought that up?

[David Frost]

"Thus, 78 percent of Bush supporters who watch Fox News said they thought the United States had found evidence of a direct link to al-Qaeda, while 50 percent of Bush supporters who rely on NPR/PBS thought so. "
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/EJ04Ak01.html

sorry, i guess my numbers were a bit low.. can you please tell me where you got 68 percent from. and please take into consideration that this is an ALL VOLUNTEER ARMY. how many of these troops are registered republicans? i would expect that number to be much higher.

if there are any other descrepencies in my facts, let me know.. ill get you whatever you need.

[IamAlejo]

I got the 68% from a local (mostly liberal) news station. I kinda live in a big military area, so they talk about the military's opinion a lot. But I'll try to find a source for ya to please you.

The fact is...the military is the people over there fighting, while you are sitting at home doing nothing, only complaining about how they shouldn't be over there when even the majority of them think they should be over here. And while I congratulate you on finding your poll, I have never heard of Asia Times in my life. About 35% of the American population doesn't know who wrote the Constitution, so asking a question do the population isn't really that smart.

And your thing about "a few misquotes"....I could understand that, but he's a proven liar. He's been lying forever. Hell, he even faked being Irish in order to get voted into Senate.

Why do I think Iran will be taken care of if they are endorsing us. Didn't we help Iraq out 15-20 or so years ago? Aren't we going in there as of now? Yes, and yes. I'm not saying Bush will go into Iran during his presidency, because spreading out our troops to thin will be a HUGE mistake, but I do think it will be taken care for and carefully looked at.

Why do I not point out Osama bin Laden? Hmmmm...besides his occasional tape, he has been running for his life. I haven't seen an attack on United States, have you? Obviously he is a little preoccupied.

Propaganda was used in World War 1, World War 2, in almost every way we've been in. That's how public support for wars are gained.

Again I'll ask what your opinion on the ILLEGAL MISSILES we found in Iraq is. I think it is important that we found these long distance missiles that they weren't supposed to have.

[David Frost]

regardless of the fact that you have or have not heard of the asia times, the survey was done by the University of Maryland's Program on International Policy Attitudes (PIPA) as well as several California-based Knowledge Networks. And last time i checked, you dont have to know who wrote the constitution to figure out that this president, and his administration, LIED to the american people on many different occasions and has done all that they can to cover it up.


what do i think about those long range weapons? well, yay.. we spent billions of dollars and HUNDREDS of innocent lives to find a couple missles.
during the cold war, the united states lost 11 nuclear weapons.

Pakistans former cheif nuclear scientist Abdul Quadeer Khan addmitted to selling nuclear materials and designs to Libya and North Korea.

no matter how you try to interpret it, there are loose nuclear materials in the former soviet union.

North Korea HAS NUCLEAR WEAPONS!!! THEY DO!! Perhaps if bush didnt break off all contact with them for quite some time, they wouldnt have been able to develop this stunning nuclear weapons program.

Irans weapons program is coming along nicely. they do a good job of using a nuclear development program as a front for weapon building.

The Saudis already have in place a foundation for building a nuclear weapons deterrent. In the mid-1980s, they clandestinely negotiated the purchase of about 50 to 60 Chinese CSS-2 missiles.

Robert S. Norris and a team of researchers at the Natural Resources Defense Council, Ming Zhang with the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, and John L. Lewis and Hua Di (now tragically imprisoned in China) of Stanford University have produced important studies on the Chinese nuclear program, with detailed information on nuclear weapons developments, deployments, and nuclear policy nuclear tests from the 1960s to the 1990s.

Pakistan and Israels nuclear weapons program is coming along quite fine as well. As of 2000, Israel has around 100-199 nuclear weapons. and truely, this is only the tip of the iceberg...

so, was i happy about finding long range missles in Iraq, yes. was i happy about the amount of resources, lives, and money that it costed, No. can i sleep easier at night knowing that Iraq doesnt have these weapons (by the way, can you post something on this because, unless im wrong, i have only known the following :The U.N. inspectors swarming over Iraq's missile industry found an infraction last week: The short-range Al Samoud 2 sometimes flies a few miles farther than allowed. But the experts have reported no sign of any longer-range missiles that could strike Israel or neighboring oil nations as Washington fears.), well i cant sleep easier because i know that there are many many other countries and terrorist groups that have REAL TANGIBLE weapons of mass destruction. that thought is what keeps me up at night. my only real hope is that this president can be taken out of office before its to late to take action on this.

[franscar]

Originally Posted by IamAlejo

About 35% of the American population doesn't know who wrote the Constitution, so asking a question do the population isn't really that smart.

So who should they ask to choose the American president then? Sort of worries me if Americans themselves don't have enough faith in each other's intelligence to choose the man who has to keep the world free of nuclear war.