The Official Religious/Political Debate Thread (country, rock)

[Rabid Sea Turtles]

Hezbollah is not a terrorist organization, did you bother to read the rest of this thread, or did you just come in and spout your uninformed bullsh*t?

[Barnard17]

Originally Posted by crazy80shair

hey FAL,
israel didn't just attack. they exhausted all possible avenues of diplomacy. Oh but wait Hezballah is a terrorist orgazinaztion. They don't follow the rules of normal diplomacy. You can't just say there is always another way. People are dying, its horrible. but when a terrorist organization houses there rockets next to innocent people some of them will die. it sucks balls. if you were getting shot at you would shoot back. having superior technology is not an excuse not to use it against a lesser foe.

Wake up. There is always another way. The UK doesn't deal with the IRA by carpet bombing Ireland. When the use of "superior technology" requires massacring innocents and the genocide of a nation, your technology is not superior. The use of missiles and air attacks leads to sloppiness. The IDF don't bother to verify their targets, or they leave it so long that the target has moved out but they shoot anyway. They do not care for civillian losses, the number of civvies killed when compared to Hezbollah is vastly disproportionate.

[MoonlitSunshine]

Originally Posted by Fal

The UK doesn't deal with the IRA by carpet bombing Ireland

Whuch, I must say, I am quite thankful for...

Yeah I didn't read the argument, I'm jumping in here, and someone is bound to have said it before, but under the current circumstances I don't think I could ever stand with israel. The speed at which they resort to making airstrikes on civilian villages isn't exactly very humane.

[Barnard17]

Hezbullah don't use suicide bombers, get your facts straight. they have a standing militia.

and no, Israel don't go in Rambo style. Rambo style uses knives, not laser guided missiles. The massacre of Qana was against a target that had entered town two days previous, and wasn't particularly precise. Israel flattened a secluded UN observation post which they knew was manned by unarmed observers. They flattened downtown Beirut despite Hezbullah being centred around south Lebanon. They blow up bridges, they demolish commercial airports and ports, they blow up busses cars and trucks transporting refugees, they blow up ambulances. Hell they've even been known to use planes to bomb two men running through the woods. And that's just Lebanon, do you want to get into the stuff they do in Palestine? The IDF have never given a damn about who gets in the way of their attacks.

[IamAlejo]

Originally Posted by Fal

The use of missiles and air attacks leads to sloppiness.

It also leads to saving your own men. At the expense of others? Possibly, but with the reward you take the risk.

[Barnard17]

Originally Posted by crazy80shair

your kidding right. do some reading then get back to me. you can ignore the facts that are right in front of you, i can't help you there. i guess isreal should start lobbing rockets that don't have any aim into cities and towns hitting inocent people indiscrimativly (which is exactly what hezbollah is doing) instead of targeting specific sites in which they believe to be hezbollah. Its not right to kill innocent people but Isreal isn't going in trying to kill innocent people. How would that help them? Do you really believe isreal is killing innocent people on purpose?

For decades Israel have been killing innocents without doing so much as batting an eyelash in Palestine. Why? Because it keeps the people supressed and stops them from being able to resist or complain about Israels actions. I find Hezbollah actions despicable, and fully disagree with their tactics. But in the short space of time this incursion has been going on, the number of civvies that IDF have killed is far greater than Hezbollah can hope to kill. Hezbollah rely on home made Qassam rockets, which you're lucky to do damage with, and Katushya missiles, which date back to the second world war. Israel have artillery, patriot missiles, jets, bombers, tanks. Israel may not have sat down and set "well there's a bunch of innocent people there, lets blow them up" but they certainly haven't said "well look, there are innocents in the area so we'll use tactics that minimalise the damage". And Israels use of force is far more lethal than the Hezbollah one. Not to mention that Israel are the guys you can talk to easily. Not to mention that Israel are the agressors in this situation. http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HG15Ak02.html
"the Israeli tank destroyed by Hezbollah, and the soldiers captured and killed on July 12, had trespassed into Lebanon's side of the border with Israel."

[DontRunMeOver]

If we could, I'd be interested to take a step back now and see where these different arguments are coming from. In this debate, I'm definitely on the Lebanese side and to be honest I'm currently feeling a lot more respect for Hezbollah than the Israeli military. Why? Well, this is the kind of news coverage we get in the UK. (Copied and pasted from the BBC news website).

What kind of news coverage have you been getting on the subject?

---

More than 54 civilians, at least 34 of them children, have been killed in a town in south Lebanon in the deadliest Israeli strike of the conflict so far. Displaced families had been sheltering in the basement of a house in Qana, which was crushed after a direct hit. Lebanon's prime minister denounced "Israeli war criminals" and cancelled talks with the US secretary of state. Israel said it regretted the incident - but added that civilians had been warned to flee the village.

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said Israel would "continue to act with no hesitation against Hezbollah" which has been firing rockets into Israel from southern Lebanon. What has happened in Qana shows this is a situation that simply cannot continue.

British Prime Minister Tony Blair:
'Lebanon crisis 'cannot continue'

Hundreds of Lebanese protesters staged a violent demonstration, ransacking the UN headquarters in Beirut, chanting slogans against the US and Israel and in support of the Hezbollah militants. Several countries have condemned the attack and renewed their calls for an immediate ceasefire - opposed by Israel and the US. At an urgent meeting of the UN Security Council, Mr Annan urged members to strongly condemn the Qana attack and to put aside differences to call for an immediate ceasefire.

"May God have mercy on the children. They came here to escape the fighting."
Qana survivor

[In pictures: Qana strike
Carnage at Qana ]

British Prime Minister Tony Blair said on Sunday the situation could not continue and that all hostilities ought to cease once a UN resolution is adopted. Lebanon's health minister now says about 750 people - mainly civilians - have been killed by Israeli action in Lebanon since their operations began 19 days ago.

---

Intense bombing

Witnesses said the early-morning strike hit the three-storey building where families had been sheltering in the basement, crushing it sideways into an enormous crater. One survivor said the "bombing was so intense that no-one could move". Elderly, women and children were among those killed in the raid, which wrought destruction over a wide area.

Mid-East crisis map
Qana: Echo of 1996 attack

Reporters spoke of survivors screaming in grief and anger, as some scrabbled through the debris with bare hands.

"We want this to stop," a villager shouted.
"May God have mercy on the children. They came here to escape the fighting."

Rescuers found the experience too much to cope with. Our correspondent saw a Red Cross rescue worker sitting in the sunshine just sobbing, overcome with emotion.

Israel said the Shia militant group was responsible for the Qana strike, because it used the town to launch rockets. The BBC's Jim Muir, in Qana, says many did not have the means - or were too frightened - to flee.

[MoonlitSunshine]

Originally Posted by DontRunMeOver

Israel said it regretted the incident - but added that civilians had been warned to flee the village.

I like that. "Hey, we want to bomb your village, so push off."

There are 2 problems with that statement. At least.

1) It's not their country, it's not their land.
2) By warning the civilians, they are warning any potential "terrorists" in the area, thus making the entire operation useless.

Any actual terrorist or activist against Israel couldn't possibly be stupid enough to stay in the area when he/she found out that they were going to bomb it.

Israel, from my point of view, just seem to be looking for excuses to use their military superiority to blast the crap out of every other country around them. And the only reason the other countries haven't just mobbed them is because the US supports them.

And you know what the worst thing is? Israel is on Palestine ground. They were given it, as a present from the World Powers. Did the palestinians get a say in this? I sincerely doubt it. and now they have to fight for what's left of their lands. Any one else see a problem here?

Oh and by the way, the news we get here is pretty much the same, minus the Tony Blair quotes.

[Barnard17]

Where would the Lebanese go? People fleeing have been targetted by bombs, a massive portion of the dead are either people who were fleeing in cars/busses at the time, or refugees who had gone elsewhere for safety (Qana was full of refugees). Hundreds of miles of road have been bomb, bridges destroyed. With a road network as damaged as Lebanons and such a massive level of fear you cannot possibly expect to evacuate cities within a few hours. Israels fliers are an illthought out escape route so they can say "well we did warn them ...", they have little to no meaning.

[Raine]

It's clearly obvious that the nation of Israel is attacking Lebanese people.
But collectively is it fair to say that all Israelis are against Lebanese or harbor thoughts of hositlity towards them?

That was just something on my mind.