The Official Religious/Political Debate Thread (quote, Hang)

[swim]

Originally Posted by oojay

I agree with you 100% thats it takes both nature and nurture to determine a person's action, along with free will. And just b/c someone has an over-abundance of the testosterone hormone doesnt automatically mean that they will become addcited to alcohol or commit a violent crime. And while you may not be able to control your environemnt as much for the first 18 years or so of ones life, you can choose your friends, the places where you hang out, and the types of situations that you choose to put yourself into.

More testosterone of course doesn't mean that you'll definitely commit violent crimes. Though they should do a study on how XYY never got in trouble with the law.

I don't think you choose your friends. Think about it. When you're little you hangout with kids in your neighborhood. Correct? And basic real estate is that houses/apartments within a half mile of each other, about the distance your parents will let you stray when you're 5, are about the same the price. Most people buy the best place they can afford, especially if they have kids. So it's not a far stretch to say that the kids have similar economic backgrounds? So there, you haven't really chosen your friends. I don't think you can choose what situations you're in either. I mean if you're parents didn't guide you then again it's just not your fault. If your parents do guide you either wouldn't put your self there or when you did they'd correct you.

[Merkaba]

Originally Posted by oojay

Influences are determined by your environemnt. They said you have no control over your environment, how is that correct?

Whats the problem? That makes perfect sence to me. If I was brought up in an extreme christian sect, I would have little or no control on my environment, yet I would be influenced by it.

And just b/c your parent is an alcoholic or wife beater doesnt determine whethere or not you will be. It may, according to some, give people somewhat of a pre-disposition,

By some? Thats playing down a truth if ever I saw one. Try and tell me you could go through your upbringning in that environment and not be predisposed by it.

but it is not a mahor determining factor. Your ideas may be correct if youre dealing with 12 year olds who have no self confidence and just follow the flow, but most people in the world have a backbone, and choose to use their free will.

Jesus man, most people in the world have backbones formed by their upbringing. Everyone was 12 at some stage.

[swim]

Originally Posted by oojay

Its a solid concept youve got, but its not always applicable. Humans and apes have something like 98% or 99% the same DNA. But im sure that they would react quite differently if somone decied to point a gun at their head. A human would most likely run awat in fear, while an ape may lick the gun and treat it as a lolly-pop.

That's where nurture comes in. I would never carry a knife because I've never ever thought I needed too but someone who lives in a neighborhood where there are a lot of muggings might.

[[MERIT]]

Originally Posted by swimintheundertow

More testosterone of course doesn't mean that you'll definitely commit violent crimes. Though they should do a study on how XYY never got in trouble with the law.

I don't think you choose your friends. Think about it. When you're little you hangout with kids in your neighborhood. Correct? And basic real estate is that houses/apartments within a half mile of each other, about the distance your parents will let you stray when you're 5, are about the same the price. Most people buy the best place they can afford, especially if they have kids. So it's not a far stretch to say that the kids have similar economic backgrounds? So there, you haven't really chosen your friends. I don't think you can choose what situations you're in either. I mean if you're parents didn't guide you then again it's just not your fault. If your parents do guide you either wouldn't put your self there or when you did they'd correct you.

But while there may be 100 kids in your neighborhood, it is up to you to choose which ones you will associate with. And why are we talking about kids anyways? Kids only commit a negligable percentages of murders or violent crimes, despite their genetic "pre-disposition". And it seems that youre insuating that people of the same social class will have the same morals, actions, and reactions. That is in no way true.

[swim]

We're talking about kids because that's where your influences start. You don't start a book on page 67 you start on page one because that leads to everything else.

You think little kids think long and hard about the people they hangout with?

[[MERIT]]

Originally Posted by Merkaba

Whats the problem? That makes perfect sence to me. If I was brought up in an extreme christian sect, I would have little or no control on my environment, yet I would be influenced by it.


By some? Thats playing down a truth if ever I saw one. Try and tell me you could go through your upbringning in that environment and not be predisposed by it.

Jesus man, most people in the world have backbones formed by their upbringing. Everyone was 12 at some stage.

If you hated your environment, then leave. Its that simple. Or if you dont believe in what youre being taught, then DONT LISTEN TO IT



Genetic pre-dispositions are a theory at best. My father beat my mother all the time when I was younger, and I have never raised a hand to a woman, nor have I even been tempted to . I guess im livng proof that youre wrong :\ And people dont have backbones b/c they dont have confidence, something that cannot be "taught", despite of being 12 or otherwise.

[[MERIT]]

Originally Posted by swimintheundertow

We're talking about kids because that's where your influences start. You don't start a book on page 67 you start on page one because that leads to everything else.

You think little kids think long and hard about the people they hangout with?

Everone knows that childhood is important in shaping your adult life, but acting as if one has no control over it is absurd. And yes kids think about who they want to associate with. And while children may not give hours of thought to choosing their friends, they still do get to choose. Its not up to others to pick your frineds.

[swim]

Originally Posted by oojay

If you hated your environment, then leave. Its that simple. Or if you dont believe in what youre being taught, then DONT LISTEN TO IT



Genetic pre-dispositions are a theory at best. My father beat my mother all the time when I was younger, and I have never raised a hand to a woman, nor have I even been tempted to . I guess im livng proof that youre wrong :\ And people dont have backbones b/c they have confidence, something that cannot be "taught", despite of being 12 or otherwise.

The problem is that if I told a kid that a cat was a dog and a dog was a cat they would have no choice to believe me because they never heard otherwise.




Your situation is complex like I mentioned a couple of pages ago. Other influences overrode it simply.

[[MERIT]]

Originally Posted by swimintheundertow

The problem is that if I told a kid that a cat was a dog and a dog was a cat they would have no choice to believe me because they never heard otherwise.




Your situation is complex like I mentioned a couple of pages ago. Other influences overrode it simply.

Someone could tell me that a rock they found was made of the super rare element "kryptonite" and I wouldnt belive it just b/c ive never been told otherwise. youre just making assumptions that children have no free will or common sense. And once again, its impossible to say that im not a woman beater b/c of my influences. I CHOOSE not to be a wife beater.

[swim]

Originally Posted by oojay

Everone knows that childhood is important in shaping your adult life, but acting as if one has no control over it is absurd. And yes kids think about who they want to associate with. And while children may not give hours of thought to choosing their friends, they still do get to choose. Its not up to others to pick your frineds.

On what criteria would one pick a friend? Someone similar to you, correct? Which, sadly, maybe looks or sex. But also what tv, sports, music and other basic things you have in common.

All of those things were exposed to you by your parents which you have no control over.