The Official Religious/Political Debate Thread (cover, shows, quote, history)

[DontRunMeOver]

I'm not saying that God couldn't have existed, I'm saying that he didn't and doesn't.

We can't find out what physical laws applied in the past, or which ones will apply in the future. All we can find out is which ones apply at the time when we are performing empirical observations on them.

I'll assume you're arguing more against Swimintheundertow about the no beginning idea. I was just saying that there being a beginning is an assumption, which is as open to debate as any of the other ideas on offer.

[Rebirth]

Saying he could have existed is just saying that you don't know for sure, which is an obvious statement. But, by then saying he doesn't exist is a flat-out contradiction to what you just said.

It's all pretty pointless except for the curiousity factor. But have you heard of the Bible Code? It's funny how in my mind it's so easy to disregard the concept of God but if the Bible Code is just some sort of anomaly then how the hell can that be when the probability of that being the case is not even computable in a realistic sense?

[DontRunMeOver]

It says... (in your favourite, Wikipedia)

About the Bible Code:
"Responding to an explicit challenge from Drosnin, who claimed that only the Bible could yield ELS, Australian mathematician Brendan McKay found many ELS letter arrays in Moby **** that contain ELSs related to modern events, including the assassination of Martin Luther King, Jr. (Choice of Moby **** was probably due to it being used by Drosnin as an example of a book that could not contain secret code.)"

ELS meaning the coding of words as described by the Bible Code. I'm well aware that Wikipedia isn't the most reliable source, but in this case it deals nicely with the point that you can read all kinds of crap into all kinds of sources if you try hard enough.

The probability of the Bible Code being coincidence does sound like its 'computable in a realistic sense'.

[Rebirth]

I've studied up on Brendan McKay's work and the greatest flaw is that in Moby ****, sure you get your codes, but the chances of these aren't so unrealistic. We're talking 1/1000 (in correspondence to the Bible which is of roughly the same length). But the Bible Code has so many ****ing codes that it's almost unbelievable. I couldn't even type out how many 0's there are contained in the probability. But yeah 2^10,000(!!) I think it is.

If you're not familiar with the codes, they are blatantly specific. One is : "Twin Towers," "Terrorist Attack," "Bin Laden" and it even tells you the date. And many of the codes have exact dates of the historic events.

[DontRunMeOver]

Originally Posted by Rebirth

I've studied up on Brendan McKay's work and the greatest flaws is that in Moby ****, sure you get your codes, but the chances of these aren't so unrealistic. We're talking 1/1000 (in corresponsidce to the Bible which is of roughly the same legnth).

How do they come up with those statistics?

I'd guess that the Bible Code/ELS have been looked for in the Bible many, many more times than they have been looked for in Moby ****, so it wouldn't be surprising that many more coded phrases have been found in the Bible. As for coding being blatently specific, my idea of such blatancy would be coding a whole sentence like "Bin Laden will organise a terrorist attack on the Twin Towers" into the bible as being very specific. My feeling would be that, had somebody wanted to encode something, they could have encoded the whole sentence together rather than putting in the occasional word here or there. What purpose would such vagueness serve?

[Rebirth]

How do they come up with those statistics?

It's basically just probability matrices and permutations of letters.

I'd guess that the Bible Code/ELS have been looked for in the Bible many, many more times than they have been looked for in Moby ****, so it wouldn't be surprising that many more coded phrases have been found in the Bible.

No this isn't true, Mckay had an entire research team on Moby ****, not as many people looking for codes in the bible, but the thing is, if you do a query on a historic event in the bible, and then in Moby D.ick, you would be almost certain that it would be in the Bible and not in Moby D.ick, or in both

As for coding being blatently specific, my idea of such blatancy would be coding a whole sentence like "Bin Laden will organise a terrorist attack on the Twin Towers" into the bible as being very specific. My feeling would be that, had somebody wanted to encode something, they could have encoded the whole sentence together rather than putting in the occasional word here or there. What purpose would such vagueness serve?

But if there is a coder, there is the possibility that he doesn't want us to be 100% certain that they're real.

[DontRunMeOver]

Originally Posted by Rebirth

But if there is a coder, there is the possibility that he doesn't want us to be 100% certain that they're real.

The sneaky bastard!

I'm going home. Catch you later.

[Rebirth]

See ya.

[tdoc210]

Allright here are the facts, discuss.

BACKGROUND:
A small group of Lebanese militants, the Hezbollah, kidnapped 2 Israeli soldiers in the hopes that they could use them to arrange an exchange with the Israeli government for at least some of the 2,000+ prisoners Israel has from Lebanon. Instead of entertaining exchange discussions, Israel retaliated with MASSIVE bombing over the entire southern region of Lebanon, where Hezbollah retains military control. Hezbollah, of course, then retaliated, sending bombs back to Israel, and the two have been embroiled in bitter war ever since. Israel is now amassing troops, tanks, etc. along their northern border and have, in small numbers, already begun small ground operations in Lebanon. The Lebanese government and it's military, though small, has promised that should Israel invade Lebanon, they will join with Hezbollah to protect their country.

Our government, via Tony Snow, the new media persona at the White House, said 2 days ago that "this isn't a war." Tell that to all of the Israeli and Lebanese refugees that have had to leave their homes for fear of their lives or those that have dies. Tell that to the Israeli newspapers, who, the day after the first bombings, declared war against Lebanon in it's newspaper headlines.

Now, what bothers me a bit about American coverage of these actions is the constant referrence to Hezbollah as a "terrorist organization" much the same as Al Queda, when in fact Hezbollah is nothing like Al Queda. They do not attack Israel due to just massively distorted fanatic religious beliefs. There are almost three decades of history between Israel and Hezbollah that most news agencies just seem to be glossing over.

This isn't the first time the two countries have been embroiled in war. Back in 1982, Israel invaded southern Lebanon. The Hezbollah was formed at that time to help combat the Israeli army, who despite continuously being labeled as the victim, has been actively trying to increase it's country's size and has been battling every neighbor around it since it's founding. So after Israel invaded Lebanon, Hezbollah was formed and it took them and the Lebanese military until 2000 to drive Israel out of it's country, and there have been constant actions from both sides since then. It's not like either side is completely innocent in this. Try warring with a country for 18 years and then expect everything to be nice and peaceful? Right..... Now Hezbollah is largely funded and armed by Syria and Iran, who of course, are on America's "axis of evil." But they are not an independent terrorist organization, they are a resistance army, and have been successful thus far in keeping Israel out of Lebanon up to this point. They are completely outmatched in manpower, equipment, and technology when up against Israel, but despite everything against them, their drive and determination, and knowledge of their own terrain, brought them success in defeating Israel and pushing them back out of their country. Israel invading Lebanon again is akin to the US re-invading Vietnam.

INTERESTING NOTE THEY WON'T TELL YOU ON THE NEWS:
The current state of Israel was founded in 1947. The ROTHSCHILDS, an international banking family, who claim to be jewish, funded it's founding and have funded most of the infrastructure to build Israel up to the advanced country it is today. Did you know that the US gives nearly $30 Billion to Israel every year? (just coincidentally about the same amount we cut from all non-military spending in our budget this year- benefits being taken from Americans) Do you know why the US states that Israel is our ally no matter what? Our government states that they are our ally simply because they are a democracy. Things are never what they seem, or what they tell you. The Rothschilds, who founded Israel and continue to back them, are also the LARGEST shareholders in the US's "un"Federal Reserve. Our Federal Reserve is a private entity that prints our money. Our government prepares a bond that they give to the Federal Reserve when they need money, promising to pay the money back, WITH INTEREST, back to the Federal Reserve. Every dollar you see is issued this way, under a debt-money system. Almost 20 percent of our federal budget annually pays the interest on our ever-growing national debt, over 8 trillion now.... That interest is paid to the Federal Reserve, who, in turn, distribute the profits to the shareholders of the Federal Reserve, 70 percent of which are foreign!

Did you think maybe our government backs Israel because over 80 percent of our nation is Christian, and the Bible says that we must support Israel? You would be wrong..... The Bible says that GOD will reinstate the nation of Israel when he returns to Earth. It does not state that Israel will be re-created when an international banker creates the state. Do you remember the ONLY time Jesus became violent in his life? This was when he overturned the tables in the marketplace in protest of the "moneylenders" or bankers because he did not agree with their debt-money system. He stated that money should never be given to your fellow man and expected to be repaid with interest. Thus, I have to dispute the Christian's claim (and I am a Christian, but perhaps I am the only one that has read my Bible?) that the current nation of Israel are the "chosen people." Yet, churches across America are preaching this to the sheep-herded masses. Every dollar bill we have, since 1957, has been printed with "In God We Trust" on it. However, since the formation of our Federal Reserve in 1913, every dollar printed has been a crime against God, because it is issued under a debt-money system.

This debt-money system perpetrated by our "un"Federal Reserve keeps America enslaved to the Rothschilds and other international bankers whims and demands. Major monetarists, including the current Federal Reserve chairman, Ben Bernanke, advocate that the Federal Reserve caused the last Great Depression of 1929 to happen, by decreasing the amount of money in circulation. Please understand that the Federal Reserve has the power to do this again at any time. They did it last time because the US did not want to enter into World War II. The Great Depression showed them that they did not have a choice in the matter. Money is power after all... and to control a nation's money is to control it's policies. Mayer Rothschild once said "If I control a nation's money, I care not who writes it's laws." Now the problem with much of the World today is that the Rothschilds and their cabal of international bankers now control the vast majority of ALL central banks in countries around the World.


Question: In 2001, which 8 countries did not have a Rothschild-controlled central bank?
Answer: Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Iran, Syria, Sudan, Cuba, and North Korea.
Question: Who's left now?
Answer: Well, strike Afghanistan, Iraq, and Libya off that list...they've either been conquered or bent over (Muammar), so now it's just Iran, North Korea, Syria, Cuba, Sudan.
Hmmmmmm...so that's what they mean by the "Axis of Evil."


You know what else I find amazing? The fact that Anderson Cooper has no problem going anywhere in Lebanon, even into Hezbollah territory to get a great story, and yet he has NEVER gone into Iraq (you know~ that silent war America is fighting every day)!

So why is the media and the likes of Newt Gingrich saying this is the beginning of World War III? Are they just conditioning us to what the international bankers have already determined is our future? The mainstream US media is owned by only 6 corporations, so most info fed through them is filtered by the higher ups. But let me lay out a likely scenario for you, so we can understand how truly close to World War III we may be....

Should Israel decide to invade Lebanon, the small Lebanese military will join Hezbollah in the fighting to protect their southern border. Should Israel accidentally or otherwise drop a single bomb on Syria, Lebanon's neighbor, Syria will become involved, and Iran has promised that if Syria is attacked by Israel, they will get involved. Should Syria and/or Iran enter the conflict, Israel, with a history of being unsuccessful in that region, will request the US's assistance and we will come running to their side. Should we enter the conflict, one can almost guarantee Iran will take this as a supreme threat over the entire region, and will bomb the oil fields of Iraq, Kuwait, Suadi Arabia, and will also possibly bomb our places in Afghanistan. Iran has long-reaching missiles and a battle-hardened LARGE standing military. Should they bomb the oil fields now protected by the US, we will likely see the rise of oil prices to some ungodly sum, like $1,000/barrel!!! Our economy is completely fragile right now and I do believe this would send us spiraling down into a fullscale crash, which would mean hard times for the US. It would mean, however, just as with the depression, higher enlistments in the US military....

[tdoc210]

This will mean the entire Middle Eastern region would be in all out full-scale conflict. This would mean Lebanon, Hezbollah, Iraqi insurgents, Al Queda, Iran, Syria, Egypt, Palestinians from Jordan, Pakistani radicals, all joining forces against the US, Israel, and Saudi Arabia in the region. My guess is that Europe will largely sit on the sidelines, while Britain will lend small forces to the US's aid. The big question is how Russia and China will enter into said conflict. Both countries have large interests in the area and how they play may well determine how the US comes out in the end.

What worries me so much is that should the US become embroiled in this WWIII, besides the prospect of another depression, we definetly will not have seen the end of terrorist attacks in America. The radicals in the Middle Eastern region already hate us...and this would provide massive fuel to their already raging fires of contempt. Should the fall of our economy result in US riots, or in the event of another major terrorist attack, there are Executive Orders issued by the President in place that would allow him to take over ALL of the infrastructure of the United States, creating a police state where we are essentially in a fascist dictatorship, completing the trend we have been following for the last half a century. This would mean the complete end of FREEDOM in America......

Now right now the conflicts in the region are as follows:
Israel/Hezbollah in Southern Lebanon
Israel/Palestine in the Gaza Strip
US in Iraq