The Official Religious/Political Debate Thread (country, rock, fan, Atmosphere)

[jibber]

^well then make suggestions, block trade if you have to, use other methods instead of going to war. war is not a valid method of input into how to run the government, but actually, I think you make a good point, I think that if we're going to give any kind of aid to a country, we should be able to make certain demands, such as improving human rights laws before aid is given. However, I completely disagree with the way that the US went about it. For one, while hussein was a horrible dictator, it's difficult to say that RIGHT NOW, the people of iraq are better off without him. Hopefully in the years to come (because I do believe it will take many years) the situation will get better, but I'm not all that optimistic. One possibility is that the US will put off returning rule to an iraqi government until a leader presents himself that will be sympathetic to the US and is willing to let foreign investment into the country. Maybe they will attempt to get the iraqi citizens to support him, or simply prop him up and hope there isn't a huge riot that runs him from the country and presents a fundamentalist islamicist leader (which is what a lot of iraqis want right now). But then again, no one really has any idea how it will turn out, but no matter what, I think that the war was a huge mistake, and resulted in a lot more negative effects than positive ones. The removal of a brutal dictatorship is not enough to outhweigh the millions who have died, not to mention the complete unrest in iraq's political and economical system, that will take decades to fully recover from. Having said that, the middle east is now thoroughly F***ed up.

[IamAlejo]

I believe you were the one blaming us for being unfair to the Cuban people for the trade blocks we put on them because of Communism in an earlier thread.

[jibber]

not sure, I could have been, but communism and the mass murder of millions of Kurds aren't quite the same thing, but i see where you're coming from. it has to be a pretty desperate situation (like the one in iraq) to justify a trade blockade. if the US had done that I would have nothing to say against it. however, in my opinion, war is the most difficult action to justify, there are just so many devastating effects that you really have to weigh your options before dediding, and make sure that war is THE ONLY option. And I think the US government simply skipped that step.

[Eltiraaz]

War definatley was not the only option in that scenario.

[Yellow Card]

OK people first of all i would like to start off by saying im pro bush, yeh thats right p-r-o--b-u-s-h i say it like that because most of u seem to have hearing problems or are just plain stupid, the problem with u guys is because all you do is listen to the press, ur all to thick too think on your own (which im not surprised considering ur American), im a big supporter in the Iraq campaign, i dont care what u have too say the fact is Saddam Hussien and his evil sons had to be stopped at what ever cost, if anything we shouldve invaded the country years ago.
have any of u taken the time to look at the good things that George Bush Jr has done?
or are u all too arogant too look at both sides of the argument.
ive researched the bad and the good about ur president and i think he is what us auzzies like to call- a fair dinkum champion.


Im goin to leave it at that, ive got more, but i want to find out how long it takes for someone to respond to this thread.




Cheers....

[shadowsniper]

Do your really one of the stupiest people I have seen. You really disappoint me, especially since your a foreigner. ESPECIALLY because you are an AUZZIE. Good thing ur not a German, because Germany and France are the only intelligent countries it seems in Europe, well Spain joined the group too. You dont listen to the media or press. Wow, where do u get your information then? Conspiracy websites? Everything is media, media means anything that informs through audio, visual or other means of communications. I guess u didnt know that since English isnt ur first language, well its not mine either, but I guess that just means your not informed, oh well. Seriously dude, go read a book or something, this is hurting my brain. Many people in the US dont like Bush any more and you, a foreigner, like him. JESUS ****ING CHRIST, I am out of here. This is lame we already explained all this in previous posts that you were to lazy to read. I even said I wasnt American. Go read before u post. Anyways, I got to go work, cant wait to see the november elections results, bye.

Originally Posted by Yellow Card

OK people first of all i would like to start off by saying im pro bush, yeh thats right p-r-o--b-u-s-h i say it like that because most of u seem to have hearing problems or are just plain stupid, the problem with u guys is because all you do is listen to the press, ur all to thick too think on your own (which im not surprised considering ur American), im a big supporter in the Iraq campaign, i dont care what u have too say the fact is Saddam Hussien and his evil sons had to be stopped at what ever cost, if anything we shouldve invaded the country years ago.
have any of u taken the time to look at the good things that George Bush Jr has done?
or are u all too arogant too look at both sides of the argument.
ive researched the bad and the good about ur president and i think he is what us auzzies like to call- a fair dinkum champion.


Im goin to leave it at that, ive got more, but i want to find out how long it takes for someone to respond to this thread.




Cheers....
Matt

[Yellow Card]

For starters, I can tell that english isn’t you’re native language because yours is terrible. Shadowsniper needs to take a step back and instead of trying to be apart of a cool minority by hating whoever the protestors hate, a little research never hurts. You have no idea how bias the media is, the truth is that a story against the american campaign will sell better than a story about how much america has done for the people of iraq or how honourable george w. bush really is. Eg. Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1:
 The first battalion of the new Iraqi Army has graduated and is on active
duty (~60,000 Iraqis providing security to citizens).
 Nearly all of Iraq's 400 courts are functioning.
 The Iraqi judiciary is fully independent.
 Power generation hit 4,518 megawatts (Oct), exceeding prewar output.
 All 22 Universities & 43 technical institutes/colleges are open
 Nearly all primary and secondary schools are open.
 Coalition has "rehabbed" 1,500+ schools (500 ahead of schedule).
 Teachers earn from 12-25 times their former salaries.
 All 240 hospitals and more than 1200 clinics are open.
 Doctors salaries are at least 8 times what they were under Saddam.
 Pharmaceutical distribution has gone from almost zero to 12,000 tons.
 Coalition has helped administer 22 million+ vaccinations to children.
 Coalition has cleared 14,000+km of Iraq's 27,000km of weed-choked canals
which now irrigate tens of thousands of farms. This project has created
100,000+ jobs for Iraqi men & women.
 Coalition has restored over 3/4 of prewar telephone services and 2/3+ of
potable water production.
 4,900+ full-service telephone connections (~50,000 by year-end).
 Commerce is expanding rapidly (bicycles, satellite dishes, cars, trucks,
etc) in all major cities and towns.
 95% of all prewar bank customers have service and first-time customers are
opening accounts daily.
 Iraqi banks are making loans to finance businesses.
 The central bank is fully independent.
 Iraq has one of the world's most growth-oriented investment and banking
laws.
 Iraq has a single, unified currency for the first time in 15 years.
 Satellite TV dishes are legal.
 Foreign journalists are not on "10-day visas" paying mandatory fees to the
Ministry of Information for minders. There is no such Ministry.
 There are 170+ newspapers.
 Foreign journalists (and everyone else) are free to come and go.
 A nation that had not one single element ? legislative, judicial or
executive ? of a representative government, now does.
 In Baghdad alone, residents have selected 88 advisory councils.
 Baghdad's democratic transfer of power (1st in 35 years); city council
elected its new chairman.
 Iraqi Chambers of commerce, businesses, schools and professional
organizations are electing their leaders all over the country.
 25 ministers, selected by the most representative governing body in Iraq's
history, run the day-to-day business of government.
 The Iraqi gov't regularly participates in international events.
 Since July the Iraqi gov't has been represented in 24+ international
meetings, including UN General Assembly, the Arab League, the World Bank,
IMF and the Islamic Conference Summit.
 The Ministry of Foreign Affairs announced that it is reopening 30+ Iraqi
embassies worldwide.
 Shia religious festivals (all but banned) are no longer illegal.
 For the first time in 35 years, in Karbala, thousands of Shiites celebrate
the pilgrimage of the 12th Imam.
 The Coalition has completed 13,000+ reconstruction projects, large and
small, as part of a strategic plan for the reconstruction of Iraq.
 Uday and Queasy are dead, and no longer feeding Iraqis to the zoo lions,
raping the young daughters of local leaders to force cooperation, torturing
Iraq's soccer players for losing games, or murdering critics.
 Children aren't imprisoned or murdered when their parents disagree with the
government.
 Political opponents aren't imprisoned, tortured, executed, maimed, or
forced to watch their families die for disagreeing with Saddam.
 Millions of long-suffering Iraqis no longer live in perpetual terror.
 As a side effect, in neighboring countries, (1) Saudis will hold municipal
elections, (2) Qatar is reforming education to give more choices to
parents, (3) Jordan is accelerating market economic reforms, (4) The Nobel
Peace Prize was awarded (first time) to an Iranian (Muslim woman) who
speaks out for human rights/democracy & peace.
 Saddam is gone.
 Iraq is free.

“Little or none of this information has been published by the Press Corps that prides itself on bringing you all the news that's important. Iraq, under US lead control, has come further in six months than Germany did in seven years or Japan did in nine years following WWII.
Military deaths from fanatic Nazi's and Japanese numbered in the thousands and continued for over three years after WWII victory was declared. It took the US over four months to clear away the twin tower debris, let alone attempt to build something else in its place.

Now, take into account that many people in our government and media continue to claim on a daily basis on national TV that this conflict has been a failure. Taking everything into consideration, even the unfortunate loss of our sons and daughters in this conflict, do you think any other country in the world could have accomplished as much as the United States and its coalition partners have in so short a period of time?”
Karl Nielson LT, CHC, USNR 13th Marine Expeditionary Unit (MEU) Chaplain

[Yellow Card]

Ok, i dont have much to say unless im asked, but after reading all six pages of this Thread, i would have to say 'iamAlejo' has thoroughly slaughtered 'sharky' and all those who appose him.
I think invading Iraq was one of the best moves the U.S of A has ever done, if anything, America sould've done it long ago.
No matter what argument u come up with, the fact is, is that Saddam Hussien and his sons had to be stopped at ANY COST.



And by the way 'Sharky' i think u should get a new pic.



Cheers,

[gdroxandunoit]

Originally Posted by SOTYrocks!

ok heres what i think. we as americans should stick george dubua bush out in irag just so he can see what he is doing to our family and friends. i hope kerry wins the election. this is so reddiculous.

typical you...lol i agree tho. man thats alot of money.....food for everyone for 5 years.....wow.......

[franscar]

Speaking as an outsider from American politics, I'd just like to ask those who supported Bush's actions in Iraq if they think that American soldiers should be sent into the numerous other areas in the world where there are huge human rights issues. Zimbabwe and North Korea for two. North Korea is a proven owner of weapons of mass destruction, the so-called smoking gun, and have been openly hostile to the outside world for close to 50 years, all the while the population of their country is brainwashed and indoctrinated into a culture of hatred against the Americans that Al-Qaeda could only dream of, yet Bush chose to invade Iraq. I have my own personal opinions on why he chose Iraq (black liquid and lots of it) but what do his supporters think of the reasons Bush proposed for the invasion?

No weapons of mass destruction have been found, and as I said earlier, human rights violations are going on all over the world.