The Official Religious/Political Debate Thread (house, single, members, quote)

[adidasss]

Originally Posted by TheBig3KilledMyRainDog

in the book Freakonomics they say that since abortion was made legal there has been a lower crime rate.

I don't want people to go out and commit baby genocide, but why let a child grow up in a house with no love or support. People always look at the parents and say "oh well deal with it" but if you look at the children, that line of thinking of insane and heartless.

Children that grow up, malnourished, undereducated, unloved, and unsupervised, you are just creating dilenquints for your children to deal with, and your childrens children.

On a mildly related note, residing on one side because of religeon makes me want to punch people. Im religeous, but you have to take everything into consideration, and you can't consider parables fact.

I have a friend who voted for bush in '04 because she voted with her morals (abortion) and I think today, Katrina and Iraq equate to far more deaths than the abortion rate since he's taken office. Don't let someone put the fear of hell into you so you make stupid decisions.

so what exactly IS your opinion on abortion? and what about the situation when a woman can have a child and she's well off with money but still doesn't want to have the baby? not all abortions are made becasue the parents think they can't provide for the child, and i just had a thought.....you don't want a child? you think you can't afford it? GET A FUCKING VASECTOMY!!...and then you can have all the sex you want....

[madeinNY]

Originally Posted by adidasss

as requested by our animal abusing friend ( alejo )..

unlike the death penalty, these two subjects i'm a little iffy about. essentially, my religious background makes me pro life, so on a principle, i'm against both. but there are certain cases in which i'm not so sure, for example, when a mother's life is in danger and the fetus is abnormal ( and i don't mean stuff like down syndrome ).

oddly enough ( or not so odd ) my sisters are pro choice, but i get the feeling that they take it too lightly, from what i've heard, the choice is not so easy to make and it has serious psychological consequences on the woman.

i'm of the opinion that life starts at the moment of the conception. also, i'm of the opinion that people who are having sex need to be aware of the possibility that they could make a child ( no contraceptive is 100%.....except vasectomy ...snip snip....) and i think that it's the ultimate selfish act of such people to decide to have an abortion when such a thing happens.

but like i say, it's not all black and white ( in cases of rape or when the couple is not in a great situation financially ), but again, in both such cases, my opinion is that the deed is done, a life has been created and it's not the child's fault of either. putting the child up for adoption seems like a better solution.

as far as assisted suicide, this i'm even more unclear about. again, i'm of the opinion that life and death are in the hands of God, man should not interfere. also, i think that everything we go through in life has a purpose, and pain also has it's purpose.....but.....even though ,from this position, i don't think i personally could do it, i honestly don't know what i would do if one of my family members is in unbearable pain and is begging for it to stop.....i just don't know......again, my religious beliefs come into play here, even if i was to do something like that, i would not consider it ok and i would be very much afraid of the impact such an act has had on my soul and my after life.....

k, heres Lexxi's take on this....

Abortion-only ok if the mother or child's life is at risk. Also only ok if the child is a rape baby, (child made by mother being raped, and mother isn't ready or just can't handle a child at this point in her life.)

Assisted Suicide-Only ok if the person is terminally ill or in a living hell (physically...mentally people could try to find help in a psychiatrist.)...also should only be done by lethal injection....

Just MO.

[right-track]

Want my opinion on abortion? Ask the kid when he's 18 if he want's terminating!!!

[franscar]

Originally Posted by adidasss

it's like you don't understand what i'm saying and yet your statements confirm it, you put your own needs before the needs of the child, that's a fact, claiming that the child would not have been happy or that you would have screwd up it's life is a bullshit excuse. there are plenty of ways to ensure that the woman is not going to get pregnant, shit happens, but my opinion is that you should be a grown up and own that shit when it does happen, not run away from your responsability....sex is taken way too lightly, if you're old enough to have sex, you're old enough to deal with the consequences. YOU had sex, and yet another creature is paying for it with it's own life because YOU decided you couldn't deal with it. that my friend, is why i call it the ultimate selfish act.

my friends father is an abusive alchoholic, my father is an asshole who abuses me and my family physically and mentaly, do i or my friend whish we hadn't been born? do we wish our mothers decided to have an aborsion because we would have been better off dead? hell no, i thank god for evey breath i take....good or bad, life is a gift, once it's been created we don't have the right to end it. especially because of such a bullshit reason as " oh, we're too young, we're not ready"...

as for the question of when life begins, i don't think there's a person in this world that can deny that life begins in the moment of conception. everything else, saying that life begins in this or that week of pregnancy, is bullshit and arbitrary, if it's growning and developing , it's life....

Ah right, now we get to the crux of it. I can quite happily deny that life begins at the moment of conception. I can do this safe in the knowledge that the medical profession agrees with me entirely. You want to hurl forth a ton of christian rhetoric to "prove me wrong" then you go right ahead. But I promise you, relying on an institution that only in the 1980's denied that the sun revolved around the earth is going to get you precisely nowhere.

You want to put the hypothetical life of a hypothetical child ahead of the ACTUAL lives of ACTUAL people. Don't do that. You're creating a hypothetical life and that cheapens the entire concept. For someone who claims that life is a gift, you seem to be incredibly blasé about inventing lives for non-existent other people. My "child" never existed. A foetus was present in my ex-girlfriends' womb. A collection of cells. It had no needs. It had no life. It was nothing more than an extension of her body, and as a result of that, SHE has the final say on what happens to it. Not me. Not you. Not "god". My girlfriend was on the pill. She did not forget to take it. She got pregnant anyway. It happens in the real world. We did "own" that, as you so eloquently put it, we dealt with it quickly and safely. She went to a doctor, to a hospital, and she was treated by professionals. We do things your way and you will end up with thousands of girls shoving coat hangers into their uterus'. That's what happened in the past, you really want to go back to that?

Yes, we chose to terminate the pregnancy, because we were incapable of looking after a child. Do you really think every woman in the same situation HAS TO carry an unwanted child for nine months, give birth to it in the most painful state that a human being can experience, and then GIVE IT AWAY? Are you really that devoid of compassion? Is your head so far up its own moral superiority to understand the emotions that real people in real situations go through?

What gives you the right to pick and choose what you deem a worthy reason for an abortion? What the hell allows you the arrogance to assume you are capable of dictating to another human being what they are allowed to do with their own bodies? What gives you that right?

When I choose to become a parent, it will be because I and my partner have made a conscious decision that we are capable of giving our child the best possible life. How can you possibly think that the births of thousands of unwanted children every year can be a good thing?

I fail to see the relevance of your story about the alcoholics. So your father is a ****, so what? What does that have to do with my life, my ex-girlfriends life and our decision to abort a foetus? All that little story proves is that you have absolutely no basis for your dictatorial views on other peoples lives, and the ONLY reason you have for sticking your nose into other peoples business is the pathetic, baseless rantings of a religion that for every "life" it aims to save in the western world, it is quite happy to condemn to a slow, painful, hideous death from AIDS in Africa.

Before you decide to be pro-life, pull your head out of the clouds and think about what life actually means. Then ask yourself who's being selfish, the person who thinks logically about the future, or the person who decides what's right and what's wrong for everyone else, out of some desperate hope that it will save him from eternal damnation.

[adidasss]

Originally Posted by franscar

Ah right, now we get to the crux of it. I can quite happily deny that life begins at the moment of conception. I can do this safe in the knowledge that the medical profession agrees with me entirely. You want to hurl forth a ton of christian rhetoric to "prove me wrong" then you go right ahead. But I promise you, relying on an institution that only in the 1980's denied that the sun revolved around the earth is going to get you precisely nowhere.

em, right off the bat you're wrong, my opinions on why abortion is wrong ARE based on christianity, but not my opinion on when life begins, that's what i concluded for myself...logically. it's quite stupid and ignorant to think life doesn't begin at the moment of conception ( or rather after the process of conception is finished ). does life begin when the child is born? so in the 8th month the child is not alive? or does it begin in the 3rd month? what exactly is the point when YOU think life begins? ( and i'm not reffering to whether or not you think it's an actual person, that point is debatable ). there's a reason why it's called an abortion, because it stops the development of something, if something is developing and growing, it is life, granted it's not a human being yet, but it has the potential of becoming one, unless it's development is stopped.

Originally Posted by franscar

You want to put the hypothetical life of a hypothetical child ahead of the ACTUAL lives of ACTUAL people. Don't do that. You're creating a hypothetical life and that cheapens the entire concept. For someone who claims that life is a gift, you seem to be incredibly blasé about inventing lives for non-existent other people. My "child" never existed. A foetus was present in my ex-girlfriends' womb. A collection of cells. It had no needs. It had no life. It was nothing more than an extension of her body, and as a result of that, SHE has the final say on what happens to it. Not me. Not you. Not "god". My girlfriend was on the pill. She did not forget to take it. She got pregnant anyway. It happens in the real world. We did "own" that, as you so eloquently put it, we dealt with it quickly and safely. She went to a doctor, to a hospital, and she was treated by professionals. We do things your way and you will end up with thousands of girls shoving coat hangers into their uterus'. That's what happened in the past, you really want to go back to that?

may i draw your attention to the part where i say that women should definetly have the right to choose, abortion shouldn't be illegal for the single reason that women would still do it.

Originally Posted by franscar

Yes, we chose to terminate the pregnancy, because we were incapable of looking after a child. Do you really think every woman in the same situation HAS TO carry an unwanted child for nine months, give birth to it in the most painful state that a human being can experience, and then GIVE IT AWAY? Are you really that devoid of compassion? Is your head so far up its own moral superiority to understand the emotions that real people in real situations go through?

i realize that it's not an easy decision, but i ask you, if you're so bent on proving that it's not life or a prospecting person you decided to terminate, why is it so difficult? if it's just an extention of her body, inanimate ,not living, why is it so psychologically difficult? why isn't it as easy as cutting off your hair?

Originally Posted by franscar

What gives you the right to pick and choose what you deem a worthy reason for an abortion? What the hell allows you the arrogance to assume you are capable of dictating to another human being what they are allowed to do with their own bodies? What gives you that right?

nothing, i'm not dictating what anyone should do. i'm merely saying that i think it's wrong and i'm trying to explain to you and others why i think it's wrong. like i said before, i am pro life, but i am also pro choice. if you want to do it, you should be able to do it.

Originally Posted by franscar

When I choose to become a parent, it will be because I and my partner have made a conscious decision that we are capable of giving our child the best possible life. How can you possibly think that the births of thousands of unwanted children every year can be a good thing?

i don't think it's a good thing, i think it's a bad thing, but i think such things should be prevented in ways other than abortion.safe sex or no sex. i repeat, if you're going to have sex, you need to be aware of the possible consequences. having sex , being aware of that and then just deciding to have an abortion is simply reckless behaviour as far as i'm concerned.

Originally Posted by franscar

I fail to see the relevance of your story about the alcoholics. So your father is a ****, so what? What does that have to do with my life, my ex-girlfriends life and our decision to abort a foetus?

i stated that example to explain that even though parents can be dickheads, the child can still have a good and happy life. you stated that it's better to terminate a pregnacy than to expose the child to the harsh realities of life. i say that noones life is perfect and even when you are well off and decide that you want to have a child and can take care of it, it can still be unhappy and have a miserable life. should we then just stop procreating? because the child may or may not be unhappy? ( actually, yes, that's one of the reasons why i'm not having a child )

Originally Posted by franscar

All that little story proves is that you have absolutely no basis for your dictatorial views on other peoples lives, and the ONLY reason you have for sticking your nose into other peoples business is the pathetic, baseless rantings of a religion that for every "life" it aims to save in the western world, it is quite happy to condemn to a slow, painful, hideous death from AIDS in Africa.

you can keep chategorizing me as a biggot christion all you want, that's not what i am. i disagree with many things the catholic church is saying, aids and the use of condoms is one of them.

Originally Posted by franscar

Before you decide to be pro-life, pull your head out of the clouds and think about what life actually means. Then ask yourself who's being selfish, the person who thinks logically about the future, or the person who decides what's right and what's wrong for everyone else, out of some desperate hope that it will save him from eternal damnation.

you keep trying to turn me into some ranting radical christian that protests outside of abortion clinics. i'm not trying to impose my views on anybody, this is a simple debate, i am merely stating my opinions, if you disagree with them , that's just fine by me, i'm not going to think you're going to hell because you had an abortion or declare you the enemy of mankind and devil encarnate. everyone has the right to decide for themselves, but we also have a right to state our opinions and to have different opnions on this subject. you are obviously too personally involved in the subject to argue your case without resorting to personal attacks.....take a chill pill and relax....

[franscar]

Originally Posted by adidasss

you are obviously too personally involved in the subject to argue your case without resorting to personal attacks.....take a chill pill and relax....

You accused me of the "ultimate selfish act" and belittled an incredibly traumatic period of my life as a "bullsh1t", whilst wittering on about something you have absolutely no experience whatsoever of. What on earth were you expecting me to reply with?

[half_baked87]

Originally Posted by cheeseman

You know what? you're dead right about people being highly strung and short fused.I sometimes possess an ultra short fuse more so when I'm driving, but funnily enough when my partner is with me I don't do it.
I'll just say I'm trying my damnedest to curb it


Oh, and apologies for the name calling.It was out of order.

think nothing of it, its easy to get pissed over something so serious, opinons rarely change on topics like this. but bah, i apologize too. agree to disagree.

[adidasss]

Originally Posted by franscar

You accused me of the "ultimate selfish act" and belittled an incredibly traumatic period of my life as a "bullsh1t", whilst wittering on about something you have absolutely no experience whatsoever of. What on earth were you expecting me to reply with?

nothing, you're right, you have every right to go off at me.....i don't know what to say, in the first post i said my views on these subjects are not as firm as they are on the death penalty.....i'm not going to apologize for the way i feel.....i didn't call any part of your life bullshit, i said that your justifications of the act are bullshit, and i still think they are. what can i say, we feel very differently on this matter. i'm not trying to belittle the stuff you went through, i realize it was difficult. you have ways of justifying it, and i have no personal refference points for my views, it's all theoretical for me, that's why i can debate it without getting upset.

[franscar]

Originally Posted by adidasss

what exactly is the point when YOU think life begins?

24 weeks after conception. As recommended by the medical profession, who know an awful lot more about foetal development than I do.

Originally Posted by adidasss

may i draw your attention to the part where i say that women should definetly have the right to choose, abortion shouldn't be illegal for the single reason that women would still do it.

I was well aware of that, hence the incredulous double standard of you accusing me of having a "bullsh1t" excuse for seeking a termination.

Originally Posted by adidasss

i realize that it's not an easy decision, but i ask you, if you're so bent on proving that it's not life or a prospecting person you decided to terminate, why is it so difficult? if it's just an extention of her body, inanimate ,not living, why is it so psychologically difficult? why isn't it as easy as cutting off your hair?

Since when did a woman have to go through a potentially difficult surgical procedure to have her hair cut? Yet again displaying a total lack of understanding of the physicalities involved, or attempting to belittle the event itself, either way is irresponsible and downright foolhardy.

Originally Posted by adidasss

i'm not dictating what anyone should do. i'm merely saying that i think it's wrong and i'm trying to explain to you and others why i think it's wrong. like i said before, i am pro life, but i am also pro choice. if you want to do it, you should be able to do it.

Same double standard written in a different sentence. Congrats. You spend a rant telling me that a decision I have made in my life is bullsh1t, and then in the next post claim not to be dictating? What was that then, your impression of friendly advice?

Originally Posted by adidasss

i don't think it's a good thing, i think it's a bad thing, but i think such things should be prevented in ways other than abortion.safe sex or no sex. i repeat, if you're going to have sex, you need to be aware of the possible consequences. having sex , being aware of that and then just deciding to have an abortion is simply reckless behaviour as far as i'm concerned.

It was bought up before by someone else and you ignored it, so I'll bring it up here again. Here's the facts for you. There is a disproportionate amount of unwanted pregnancies in low income, ill-educated households. These are households with the least access to contraception, and the least awareness of contraceptive methods. They are more likely to be the victims of and perpetrators of crime, and are more likely to experience mental and physical health problems and higher than average cases of depression, suicide, infant mortality and mortality in general. Just because YOU were educated enough to know the risks, doesn't mean everybody else is. You will not stop people from having sex, regardless of what your morals say. And as for those who choose to abort despite knowing the risks, tell me why it is reckless. They are not taking valuable resources away from the health services as the process is much more often than not undertake in private hospitals. They are not producing a burden on the state in the form of an unwanted child, they are only reckless because you decide it, with nothing more than the weight of your own mind behind it.

Originally Posted by adidasss

i stated that example to explain that even though parents can be dickheads, the child can still have a good and happy life.

Has nothing to do with the topic in hand. You want to start a thread on bad parenting, do it somewhere else.

Originally Posted by adidasss

you stated that it's better to terminate a pregnacy than to expose the child to the harsh realities of life.

No I didn't. You're twisting what I actually said to fit your agenda.

Originally Posted by adidasss

i say that noones life is perfect and even when you are well off and decide that you want to have a child and can take care of it, it can still be unhappy and have a miserable life. should we then just stop procreating? because the child may or may not be unhappy? ( actually, yes, that's one of the reasons why i'm not having a child )

And there's the agenda. Seeing as it's nothing to do with what I actually wrote it isn't worthy of further comment.

[SuperPseudonym]

Abortion - Oh no! We killed someone! Too bad he/she had no emotional connection to anything at all and really didn't care.

Assisted Suicide - Why not? If someone wants to kill themselves why not go ahead and give them the supplies to do so? I mean sure you'd have to pay for them, but it would be your one stop shop medical termination, instead of a shunned, secret, hugely planned out event. (or in some cases lucky and unplanned, but if you do that there isn't much need for AS is there?)