TheBig3

I once watched a claws-out death match between a guy saying he wouldn't agree with feminism because it too pigeonholed the cause. Why focus on women when there were countless groups being prevented from equality.

He was murdered in public because he knew what he meant but couldn't articulate his position and of course, his opponent had roughly 82 years of sloganeering and bumper stickers to quote at him. And, as if often the case, seemed like a more immediate and burning issue because he was going up against a woman, against feminism.

But its true. Most women will tell you feminism is the goal of having men treated as equally as women. What I think the feminists don't often see is that for to many people who aren't, we don't need to assign ourselves a term in order to do what most believe is right. In fact many on the American right (you're welcome, Urban) would argue that this has always been the goal of the American movement.

While many on the side of the feminist would cite the Declaration of Independence as saying "all men" those of us too willing to accept the logic of progress would argue that America's one enduring fail-safe is that we error on the side of freedom. While it has its downsides, it has allowed America to march endlessly toward progress.

But lets not get off topic here, this isn't about political doctrine. What it is, is willing to look at the strife of one person, group, or section of the world and know that we inherently find it to be less than satisfactory. To pigeonhole yourself with terms like feminism to me doesn't seem fair to others suffering, as if there were a hierarchy or list of who was more important.

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CanwllCorfe

Feminism is a hoot.

Just kidding. You go girls

Except for the ones who never seem to be happy.

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Neapolitan

Maybe the sad ones are waiting for you to cheer them up.

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TumorAttitude

Be my best friend forever.

Saying that all feminists are fat, rude, bumper-sticker ****faces campaigning for the reversal of gender roles is like saying all rock music sounds like Nickelback.
I guess the weird, unpleasent "feminists" that y'all hate arn't the majority of feminists, they're just the most prominent type.

Fruitonica

I'm not sure what point you're aiming for, but either way it's not so relevant. Regardless of who wants the baby, the experience is still centred on the woman. At this point the only thing a man has contributed to the scenario is an orgasm. And besides, if we're discussing abortion then clearly at least the woman doesn't want the baby, she can take the guy's feelings into account but the choice rests with her.

This is getting off topic, I was just pointing out to Proggy why it's bleedingly obvious that abortion would be a feminist issue, because it touches strongly on the feminist agenda. That doesn't mean they own the topic.

ProggyMan

That's a disingenuous thing to say, a man has just as much stake in the child as the women. Considering how strongly an unwanted child affects a man I'd say it's affects both sexes equally.

They sure as hell act like it.

Fruitonica

Nah man, once a child is born and being raised, then the parents have an equal role. But I couldn't ever say that the guy's emotional response is equal to actually being pregnant and all the shit that entails. The man's response varies wildly on whether he really cares about the hypothetical baby, the woman is pregnant regardless of her feelings.

As a simple illustration, as I was going out last Friday night my dad made some joke/warning about getting a girl pregnant, and I said something along the lines of, 'Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'd skip town.' Now, that's flippant - but still entirely possible. And it shows a marked difference in the way a pregnancy affects each side.

And a really simple way to put it, which I probably could have used right at the start. Abortions are a feminist issue, because women have abortions.

I think maybe this is an American thing, you're taking the same route BooBoo did when I was arguing with him, and focussing solely on these angry radical feminists, that I never ever see represented in any significant form of media. I could probably find some blogs if I went looking...maybe if I was bombarded with this shit like you seem to be then I would feel differently.

The fact that a big part of this thread is complaining about women who dislike having doors opened for them is just sad and completely misses the point of feminism - which is still valid in the first world as long as women are being raped and assaulted, being paid less than male counterparts and largely under represented in political spheres.

It doesn't always have to be a women v men scenario, a big part of feminism is campaigning for women's interests. Similar groups exist for men.

TemperedRedFan

Agree for the most part, although it could be argued that feminism is just a bad title for a movement that was originally aimed at having equality between the sexes (I'm not refering to the extremists who believe things like all men are pigs etc).

One current issue related to feminist values is the legal rights of and facilities available to mothers returning to the workplace. Men don't have this obstacle when they have babies because, as you mentioned, they don't have to deal with the pregnancy. This, I would guess, is the main reason that women tend to have a lower average income then men in many developed nations.

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ProggyMan

The only way I see abortions being a feminist issue is in the case of rape victims, otherwise an abortion is a huge issue that affects both men and women greatly. Of course you could make the argument that it affects women more but once that little bugger pops out it's probably a bigger deal for the father.

Why are you directing this at me?

I have to ask, where are getting this from. I'm not boo boo, you seem to be putting his words in my mouth.

Fruitonica

Eh, I've made my case. From now on it's just a matter of opinion.

That was more of a general tangent against a lot of the replies in this thread I thought were stupid.

The phrase, 'they sure act like it', implies a fairly radical type of feminism that discourages any men from discussing the subject. I've never really encountered this type of angry feminism on a large platform - but you obviously have to get this perception so I was just wondering if it was something about the American media.

I'm not trying to say your argument style is anything like boo boo's, so we can all chill.