Thanksgiving- Racist Holiday (American, member, cover, quote, history)

sikoholickkouboi · 11-02-2005, 11:31 PM

REGARDLESS of what you here may think of me on a personal level, I was wondering what you think of this. I thought about it more after seeing Carlos Mencia joking about it, and actually got called an idiot for saying this on another forum, and noone agreed. But basically, the pilgrims were thanking their gods for animals that weren't their's, for the trees they chopped for shelter that weren't theirs, and the crops that grew plentiful on land that they stole. I realize that today, the holiday is seen as being thankful for what you have and a time to be with family and all (though I thought that was Xmas and that should be year-round without the excuse of some corny holiday anyways, but whatever), but the historical part is still considered a large part of it and can't be just ignored. Our decorations and such even celebrate these people, who really don't deserve it. I'll quote from elsewhere:

"While many Americans enjoy turkey dinners with their families today, a
group of local American Indians, some of whom clashed with police during a
protest two years ago, were slated to speak out against what they say is a
racist holiday. "The stories of the first Thanksgiving are total lies,"
said Wampanoag tribe member Moonanum James of Chatham. "Everyone didn't sit
down at the table, have dinner and then live happily ever after. It was the
beginning of the theft of our land and the beginning of a massive genocide."
James and hundreds of other American Indians and supporters were slated to
descend upon the statue of Massasoit on Cole's Hill near Plymouth's
waterfront at noon today to observe the 30th annual National Day of
Mourning."

Am I really blowing this out of proportion, by saying this holiday is racist? Just looking for opinions.

IamAlejo · 11-03-2005, 04:47 AM

Yes you are.

DontRunMeOver · 11-03-2005, 04:52 AM

To start off with, I'm not from the US, so my knowledge of this will be pretty patchy.

The whole genocide issue is both sensitive and terrible, so I certainly wouldn't argue with people who have problems with celebrations relating to such an event. As far as I know, the genocides took place a long time after the first settlers (whose success Thanksgiving celebrates) arrived and set up camp - so you should be able to make quite a clear historical separation between the two events. Were any of the original settlers personally involved in the genocides? As far as I know, they weren't.

Also, I disagree that using the trees, animals and crops which they encountered constituted stealing on the part of the settlers. The natives believed that you couldn't own land or animals, while the settlers believed that you could. Use of the natural resources may have been some kind of insult to the culture of the natives, yet not using them would have been just as much of an insult to the culture of the settlers.

Maybe the celebration is racist, I would expect that the same label could be applied to a lot of celebrations all over the world. That would depend on how you interpret the word 'racist'. Its certainly a good word to use if you want to get people's attention and make them think a bit...

sleepy jack · 11-03-2005, 09:07 AM

*Agrees with alejo on this*

DontRunMeOver · 11-03-2005, 09:50 AM

This question's for the US contingent. How much did the history of Native Americans feature in your history curriculum at school. I studied it for maybe 2 weeks, do they go into more detail in the US and what aspects did they cover?

IamAlejo · 11-03-2005, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DontRunMeOver

This question's for the US contingent. How much did the history of Native Americans feature in your history curriculum at school. I studied it for maybe 2 weeks, do they go into more detail in the US and what aspects did they cover?

Yes we cover it for quite some time. Also, Thanksgiving isn't about the success of the pilgrims, but mainly about the cooperation of the Indians and the pilgrims at that time. The "genocide" (if you want to call it that, I guess you could) started at a later time, mainly the trail of tears, etc, which happened during Johnson's presidency (I'm pretty sure). During colonial times, while some areas didn't get along with the Indians, specifically the south, areas like Pennsylvania fared quite well with the Indians, even buying land from them instead of just taking it as most did.

fockthnxgvng · 11-15-2009, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamAlejo

Yes we cover it for quite some time. Also, Thanksgiving isn't about the success of the pilgrims, but mainly about the cooperation of the Indians and the pilgrims at that time. The "genocide" (if you want to call it that, I guess you could) started at a later time, mainly the trail of tears, etc, which happened during Johnson's presidency (I'm pretty sure). During colonial times, while some areas didn't get along with the Indians, specifically the south, areas like Pennsylvania fared quite well with the Indians, even buying land from them instead of just taking it as most did.

ok alejo youre very uninformed. this happened way before any presidencies or there being any presidents. way before. and it was a genocide, there was no friendly meeting between pilgrims and indians and it should not be celebrated by watching football and eating turkey, and then going shopping for deals the next day. face it, accept it. its very ****ing twisted.

mr dave · 11-15-2009, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fockthnxgvng

ok alejo youre very uninformed. this happened way before any presidencies or there being any presidents. way before. and it was a genocide, there was no friendly meeting between pilgrims and indians and it should not be celebrated by watching football and eating turkey, and then going shopping for deals the next day. face it, accept it. its very ****ing twisted.

so you joined a MUSIC forum, why???

FETCHER. · 11-16-2009, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fockthnxgvng

ok alejo youre very uninformed. this happened way before any presidencies or there being any presidents. way before. and it was a genocide, there was no friendly meeting between pilgrims and indians and it should not be celebrated by watching football and eating turkey, and then going shopping for deals the next day. face it, accept it. its very ****ing twisted.

Why did you dig up a 4yr old thread? Pointlessss.

IYT · 11-16-2009, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kayleigh.

Why did you dig up a 4yr old thread? Pointlessss.

Agreed.

11-02-2005, 11:31 PM	#1 (permalink)
sikoholickkouboi Music Addict Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 33	Thanksgiving- Racist Holiday REGARDLESS of what you here may think of me on a personal level, I was wondering what you think of this. I thought about it more after seeing Carlos Mencia joking about it, and actually got called an idiot for saying this on another forum, and noone agreed. But basically, the pilgrims were thanking their gods for animals that weren't their's, for the trees they chopped for shelter that weren't theirs, and the crops that grew plentiful on land that they stole. I realize that today, the holiday is seen as being thankful for what you have and a time to be with family and all (though I thought that was Xmas and that should be year-round without the excuse of some corny holiday anyways, but whatever), but the historical part is still considered a large part of it and can't be just ignored. Our decorations and such even celebrate these people, who really don't deserve it. I'll quote from elsewhere: "While many Americans enjoy turkey dinners with their families today, a group of local American Indians, some of whom clashed with police during a protest two years ago, were slated to speak out against what they say is a racist holiday. "The stories of the first Thanksgiving are total lies," said Wampanoag tribe member Moonanum James of Chatham. "Everyone didn't sit down at the table, have dinner and then live happily ever after. It was the beginning of the theft of our land and the beginning of a massive genocide." James and hundreds of other American Indians and supporters were slated to descend upon the statue of Massasoit on Cole's Hill near Plymouth's waterfront at noon today to observe the 30th annual National Day of Mourning." Am I really blowing this out of proportion, by saying this holiday is racist? Just looking for opinions.

11-03-2005, 04:47 AM	#2 (permalink)
IamAlejo Muck Fusic Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Virginia Beach Posts: 1,575	Yes you are. __________________ a man, a plan, a canal, panama

11-03-2005, 04:52 AM	#3 (permalink)
DontRunMeOver They call me Tundra Boy Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: In your linen cupboard. Posts: 1,166	To start off with, I'm not from the US, so my knowledge of this will be pretty patchy. The whole genocide issue is both sensitive and terrible, so I certainly wouldn't argue with people who have problems with celebrations relating to such an event. As far as I know, the genocides took place a long time after the first settlers (whose success Thanksgiving celebrates) arrived and set up camp - so you should be able to make quite a clear historical separation between the two events. Were any of the original settlers personally involved in the genocides? As far as I know, they weren't. Also, I disagree that using the trees, animals and crops which they encountered constituted stealing on the part of the settlers. The natives believed that you couldn't own land or animals, while the settlers believed that you could. Use of the natural resources may have been some kind of insult to the culture of the natives, yet not using them would have been just as much of an insult to the culture of the settlers. Maybe the celebration is racist, I would expect that the same label could be applied to a lot of celebrations all over the world. That would depend on how you interpret the word 'racist'. Its certainly a good word to use if you want to get people's attention and make them think a bit...

11-03-2005, 09:50 AM	#5 (permalink)
DontRunMeOver They call me Tundra Boy Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: In your linen cupboard. Posts: 1,166	This question's for the US contingent. How much did the history of Native Americans feature in your history curriculum at school. I studied it for maybe 2 weeks, do they go into more detail in the US and what aspects did they cover?