Is Indie consumerist bullsh*t?
 

Disclaimer: Apparently this guy in the video comes with some baggage which you'll see highlighted throughout the conversation. I left the video because I'd rather people know than not (I didn't). But let's try to focus on the question of "is Indie commercialized BS?"

I'm on YouTube way too much, and frequently listen to arguments about music in general. I came across this video recently, and I thought he made some good points. I think he uses a wide definition of Indie, but he's pretty honest with his vantage point, and his argument isn't baseless.

Thoughts?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AB-9j54uR64

I think as with anything, Indie has become a bit more commercialized over the years probably starting with the White Stripes. It doesn't mean that the music is necessarily bad (and I love the Stripes), but you always want to go where the money is so to speak.

I always think the harbinger of a genre isn't the problem, it's the shills they get to do the same sound with less morals or principles.

• Nirvana has principles but Three Days Grace doesn't
• The White Stripes has principles but Rilo Kiley doesn't
• RATM has principles but Limp Bizkit doesn't

Again I think lumping The Stripes in with Death Cab, the Lumineers, and Sonic Youth feels a bit absurd. Maybe in 2002 it was fine. But now we need subgenres.

But his point about it not standing for anything, and catering to bored Midwesterners is an angle I've never really thought about. I was hardcore into Indie rock and to some extent other forms of indie bands.

Also his argument that Husker Du is an edgier REM was priceless.

Yes one or two good points in this video. I like how he says that Indie Music is defined by what it isn't - and that's why it took me ages to more-or-less work out which bands/music fell into the Indie category. If the word Indie implies some hostile stance against the musical establishment, then perhaps it's time for a new label; here on MB we have hedged our bets with "Indie & Alternative", and "Alternative" works better for me: music that isn't quite popular enough to be mainstream, a place for artists to experiment with pop-rock of their own choosing, without the pressure to come up with hit singles.

The guy admits he doesn't like the genre, but spends way too much time being scornful, not of the music, but of the way people write about the music, about the cars, clothes and lifestyle of people who listen to the music. The giveaway was when he mentions "hanging out with my exgirlfriend Donna and all her rich friends"; he's got some grievance about the way they use drugs, which again, is a bit adrift from the topic of the music.

When he focuses on the music, he makes this surprising statement: "I think art should have a very specific point of view and should slap you in the f***ing face with that point of view". As an example of this attitude he chooses ska. It's true that unlike Indie music, ska has an easily identifiable sound, but I wouldn't call that a point of view as such. I'm running through some artists and wondering how they measure up; did The Beatles have a specific point of view that they slapped you in the face with?

Overall, I feel like this is a guy who had to put up with his girlfriend's music for too long and is now getting his own back by asking, "Why can't Indie music be more like the kind of stuff I listen to?"

I'm with you, Lisna. A lot of what he says is true, but it's also applicable to a lot of other music. The funniest part of the video—aside from him complaining about attention-seeking behavior on his YouTube channel—was how much of a hardcore fan cliché he is. While he was talking about how music "needs to stand for something", I was looking at all those stickers behind him thinking about how preachy bands like Earth Crisis and Shelter are and how much I don't think it enhances the music.

Please don't share videos by the Punk Rock MBA, he sucks, nothing he says is insightful and he's a fascist, he follows ghouls like Matt Walsh on Twitter and his wife is an open bigot especially towards trans people, but he's one of those "hide your power level" types because he's a coward and knows that would get in the way of reaching a broader audience.

I was ready to make a longer more in depth post about the subject until I saw who this video is from, this scumbag doesn't deserve anyone's time or attention.

Oh ****, really? That's too bad, I kinda liked some of his takes. But Matt Walsh is everything I hate about Clown America.

Has someone punched up an article about all this? I'd like to look into it more. I also don't know what "hide your power level" means.

Well Queen Boo has an interesting insight into who this guy is, and a reminder of how you should be careful about taking internet stuff at face value.

Haha! Absolutely, Janszoon! Any artist who uses music to evangelize about some position, be it religious or political, is at risk of turning his song into an irritating one-message clunker in my opinion. Also, I suspect, the opinion of Chula V, who had this to say about guitarist Phil Keaggy:-

Ethan informed me about it, I already didn't like the guy and that didn't help.

"Hide your power level" is a term Neo-Nazis use on the internet to describe not being completely upfront about their beliefs because it makes it harder for them to recruit other people, and so they can avoid accountability. It's a Dragon Ball Z reference because they're all weebs.

Ok well he just made a video about how he might be autistic and doesn't want to come off like a dick. If Ethan is the Ethan of Crowquill fame - and I say this with love - but he was quick to man the ramparts as I recall.

I'll look into this more, but I do thank you for bringing it up.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyc62g7YQM0

First of all, yes

Tangentially, I have no intention of ever watching this video or learning who Matt Walsh is but since when is following someone on Twitter evidence of anything? For example I follow quite a few Russian nationalists to have my finger on the pulse of regime propaganda, not cause I endorse them

Because Matt Walsh sucks.

I mean I'm sure he's a bottom of the barrel maga streamer or something to that effect but I think it's a bad idea to judge someone by who they follow on social media. I know people do that, which is why I never follow anyone remotely controversial on the Twitter account that's under my real name (as opposed to the anonymous one, where fun is being had)

I mean, I follow a lot of unsavory people, but I'm an overt political junkie. Punk Rock MBA doesn't strike me as someone who wants to know what happens in NY-4. But I did say I was skeptical of the assertion. I hope that's taken into account.

Yeah I used to watch his videos a bunch but as soon as I saw his wife’s YT channel and saw some of the goons he follows on Twitter I immediately unsubbed. No place in my feed for right wing chuds.

Here's a good thread of comments on PRMBA that likely sums up what's really going on. His wife being less normal isn't a condemnation of him though. (but holy eff: https://www.youtube.com/@linh7x/videos)

https://www.reddit.com/r/poppunkers/...punk_rock_mba/

That said, the no-tattoos thing in grounds for divorce.

I tried to read that reddit thread and got nothing out of it. It reminded me of when someone forwards you a six month old email chain at work and is like "see email chain for clarification".

He's very pro-cop too, not so punk rock if you ask me.

Also he has a marketing degree, that's enough reason to hate a motherf*cker let's be real, and that's like the whole angle of his YouTube channel, how to make punk more marketable, it's antithetical to what punk rock should be about.

And putting aside all the shady sh*t that's already been discussed, his overall persona is incredibly obnoxious, he comes off as a preachy know it all despite his music knowledge being incredibly surface level if not completely nonexistent when it comes to anything outside of 90s hardcore, he's a 40 something dude who still dresses and acts like he probably did as a teenager and he really comes off as a shallow try hard edgelord, if the opinions he expresses are genuinely his and not just him trying to be provocative then he has quite possibly the worst taste in music I've ever seen in my life, he's blindly dismissive of so many broad styles of music, he's always making over the top generalizations (like calling entire fanbases of bands he dosen't like incels) and he's constantly making declarative statements that go beyond contrarian to just shockingly wrong. His audience mostly consists of kids I imagine because they eat up that kinda sh*t, people who are actually part of the punk scene seem to hate him as much as I do.

As for his wife, I think it's fair to say her right wing political views are likely a reflection of his since he basically groomed her, they started dating when she was a teenager and he was in his thirties.

Just a complete scumbag.

All good points. I started watching him because it felt nice to relive my teenage scene girl days and watch analytical videos about Fall Out Boy and My Chemical Romance and such, it filled a niche at the time. But the more I find out about him the more I realize he's a tool. I always kinda thought him kissing Ronnie Radke's ass was a bit sus.

Anyway I did watch the video and hoo boy it's bad.

Y'all may remember me being quite the indie hater back in the day but hey guess what I grew up, and yet here's a guy in his 40s regurgitating all the same lazy stereotypes that were already getting old 20 years ago. Indie rock is one of the broadest musical categories there is it covers so many different styles and yet he has no problem making the most extreme generalizations about it, saying it all lacks passion and meaning. He's seriously calling Sonic Youth safe and lumping them in with f*cking Munford & Sons? He dismisses Husker Du as nothing but a heavier REM and his go to example is a song from their most commercial, least punk influenced album? Pretty revealing that he uses some girl he knew as a personal anecdote and just comes off as a judgemental assh*le.

Clearly the only purpose of this video was to stir sh*t up and get clicks. If he actually gave a sh*t he could have used this subject as a jumping off point to discuss the commercialization of underground music in general and how terms like "indie" and "punk" are too restrictive and put unrealistic expectations on artists, that would have actually been insightful and interesting but no, instead he just declares that indie rock was always commercial and calls everyone who likes indie music consumerists and all because some of it is used in TV commercials I guess? Nothing to say about how punk rock has been commercialized? I guess not, that would require some self reflection on his part considering he's literally a marketing guy, he'd know a thing or two about consumerism, the nerve of this f*cking guy, seriously.

Grooming is a non-starter. I'll add a disclaimer to the OP.

I loved indie then and now but I still feel like it devolved into formulaic BS. I just watched Meet Me in the Bathroom and it reminded me of how much of a non-formulaic genre it was in, say, 2003. It reminded me of the early 90s when record execs didn't know what the kids wants and signed all sorts of bands with the only criteria being "not hair metal."

And maybe because I was there in my formative years I'm slightly more offended by the Wes Anderson ethos+twee vocals=avocado commercials.

https://youtu.be/N0_9LWiViVo?t=27

I don't think any genre is original. It all comes from somewhere, but I think coming out of nu-metal saturation, Indie felt like we had a bit more variety again like when Soundgarden played after POTUSOA and before CAKE. I don't really pine for those early 2000s, but I do think the genre has not only become commercialized but also just a sad joke of what it was.

• The Stomp Clap Hey
• The Ironic everything
• For reasons I don't completely get I can't stand the Lumineers

It all sounds the same to me now, and it didn't really used to. When I joined this site, My Morning Jacket, TV on the Radio, The White Stripes, Modest Mouse felt like they were putting out non-formulaic stuff. While I do think (as I said in the opener) he's using a too-wide definition, the accusation that indie seems as commercial as bro-country doesn't seem wildly off base. But maybe this is how the Nazi's get you. They say "we had a zooey deschanel youth, and we're being sold a dakota johnson tomorrow" and then you get a pamphlet about white power or something. I don't know. Maybe I just needed to hear Indie get called out for its bull****.

Feel free to tell me I'm an old man yelling at a cloud.

Every genre or scene or whatever you want to call it once it becomes popular it goes through this period of commercial oversaturation which then causes the whole thing to burn out. It happened to surf rock and psychedelic rock in the 60s, prog rock and disco in the 70s, new wave and glam metal in the 80s, grunge and pop punk in the 90s and emo and indie in the 00s, it's simply the nature of the music industry beast.

Thing is there hasn't really been any completely new genre of rock music in the last 20 or so years, that's not really an indie problem, it's a rock problem, and that's reflected in how much the genre has lost relevancy in recent years, it's just not the primary music young people listen to anymore.

Do you find that the amount of young people who "aren't into music" has increased?

I dunno man, I'm gonna be 40 in 4 years and I was out of touch with youth culture even when I was young.

But I doubt it, zoomers have a wide range of interests just like any other generation before them, from what I've seen they're just not as into rock music as they are into electronic or hip hop, and due to the pandemic and this being the era of live streaming they may not be as interested in going to live shows, which is something I never cared for myself.

I have no idea what the future holds for music, only time will tell.

I'd say yes to this idea in general, but would suggest a modification about the whole thing burning out. That may ring true to people like Big3 who were into the genre during the early days, but don't forget that Indie music is also there, available to people like me who came across it in about 2015 and found a sprawling diverse genre that includes some pop stylings with wide appeal and also the early bands that Big3 is enthusing about.

A parallel to me is the career of Pink Floyd: they started out playing improvised pyschedelic music in small underground clubs, went on to fill stadiums with polished, precise Dark Side Of The Moon rock. Some people say Floyd sold out, but plenty more came late to the party and enjoyed not only Floyd's more accessible later material, but the bands that proliferated in their wake.

:laughing: I wouldn't do that, Big 3, but in the nicest possible way I might suggest that you are an old-timer who wants to wind back the clock to your glory days and you are forgetting that plenty of Indie music that sounds stale to you is going to sound fresh to late-comers like me.

Also, strictly speaking, I would query the word you used in your original question: "consumerist" = "characterized by a preoccupation with the acquisition of consumer goods." I haven't noticed that as a theme running through the Indie music I've listened to. If Indie music is now commercially successful, then it's just joined many other genres, like blues, which these days is a musical product, bought, sold and downloaded, rather than a protest against the hardships of slavery.

I'm really not the biggest indie fan, but I found a fair few indie albums last year that I really loved. Per your comment Big3 about indie today not being original and sounding the same, I guess I don't agree. I certainly don't find that it's becoming overly commercialized. Sure, some indie bands today score a big hit or two, but it's the same as it was back in 2003 with the bands you mentioned.

Per the tangential discussion about what music was popular in different decades - and what young people are listening to (or not listening to) - it seems like right now there's not really any kind of unified musical zeitgeist that all young people listen to and engage with. Hip-hop really dominated the mid 2000s, early/mid 2010s. I think it's still the most streamed genre on Spotify (someone can correct me if I'm wrong), but I feel like it's reaching that stage that rock music did in the early/mid 2000s. There's still some great rap albums getting released, but it seems like it's getting a bit stale. Add to that there's no obvious standard-bearer in rap, at least one that's getting constant airplay everywhere. Kendrick I suppose is the closest thing. Back in the early '00s, Eminem and 50 Cent were everywhere. In the mid/late '00s Kanye was everywhere. Early/mid 2010s, Drake was everywhere. But it just doesn't seem like the genre has that kind of ubiquity anymore. Maybe there's no relation, but it feels like with the rise of social media and streaming services (and algorithms), people have become more fractured and isolated and so are their music choices. Instead of radio play/music videos being a driving force of what's popular, young people nowadays start with some songs they like on Youtube or Spotify and the respective algorithms will help them branch out spiderweb fashion to stuff they also might like based on their initial input. I know we've discussed this at least a few times on here before.

Here's a sample platter from the indie albums I was talking about from last year:









I will say, I think during the pandemic, electronic music and house music specifically experienced a bit of a rennaisance in creativity and output and I think it's still continuing today:

Thanks for putting up some songs to illustrate the discussion, SGR. I think I liked your first and last selections best.

Here's the opening track, representative of the Tune-yards 2021 album, Sketchy. I'm calling this recent Indie music that packs a punch until anyone contradicts me.

Personally I would avoid this language like the plague unless sexual politics as miserable, repressive, coercive, invasive, judgmental, hysterical, paranoid etc etc as that of conservatives is what you want. But that's just me.

He met his wife through Tumblr when she was around 17 and he was in his mid 30s, even if you don't think grooming is the right word you have to admit that's pretty f*cking sus.

people still use Tumblr?

I haven't thought about My Morning Jacket in many years but back in the early to mid 00s they were a band I 100% associated with the worst aspects indie. To me, their bland take on indie rock is a precursor to the newer bands that are being complained about here.

I never thought of TV on the Radio or the White Stripes as indie back then or now.

I mean it was probably before Tumblr went to sh*t.

Imagine spending over a billion dollars on website that only exists for porn, immediately banning porn and being dumbfounded that you just wasted a sh*tload of money. How the f*ck are Yahoo! even still around?

I like My Morning Jacket tho. :(

They were actually one of the few current indie bands I DIDN'T hate back then, because they were more influenced by classic rock, which was my wheelhouse.

Much of my hate for indie (and other "scene" music like emo) back in the 00s was just backlash against the hype and the fact that so many hipsters had this obnoxious, standoffish attitude and were constantly sh*tting on the music I liked, so I made hating indie a core part of my personality and as a result I ended up not being any better.

Unlike some middle aged man child who still wears flat brim hats though I eventually grew out of that phase and learned to appreciate indie music on it's own merits and not let annoying fanbases prevent me for exploring art I might actually enjoy, because that's a stupid limitation to put on myself.

https://media.giphy.com/media/1XaiQ0...P8RT/giphy.gif

You know Jans, I have to say you're one of my favorite posters. I like your vibe, iirc you're from Philly, I seem to remember you doing something cool like graphic design, you appreciated my Lion Mane-sex line. But this I cannot abide. I mean, "It still moves" ok fine. That was boring. And both Waterfall albums are capital B garbage. But their hits are ****ing HITS.

1. Holding on to Black Metal
2. Highly Suspicious
3. Touch Me I'm Going to Scream, Pt. 2
4. Victory Dance
5. What a wonderful man

Jim James even produced - arguably - the greatest Ray LaMontagne track "Hey, No Pressure"

I DIDN'T KNOW!

Z has a special place in my heart, it's the last CD I ever bought.

I think Sinister Urges is something I'd recommend on MB. It's eclectic and has quality songs. I personally love Circuital but I don't know if it's for everyone.

Yeah I wouldn't use Twitter follows as a metric either. I follow some fashy types too just so I can heckle them and their fans in the replies. Why just yesterday I made fun of Jackson Hinckle's shoes and I think it brought us that much closer to the revolution.

But I stopped watching Punk Rock MBA's videos cause he seemed like a basic bitch. Like, he seems to think DIY is supposed to be an individualist boot straps concept and that is painfully lame. He did get me on to slam death metal though so it wasn't a total waste of my time.

The fact that he follows Matt Walsh and other right wingers is consistent with his wife's politics, she has her own YouTube channel which is typical "anti-woke" reactionary garbage in the same vein as sh*t like The Quartering and Blaire White.

And apparently he's very pro-cop and if that doesn't disqualify you from calling yourself punk I don't know what does.

Even worse, he tried to tell me Attila were good.

I will say one red flag I caught before Booboo gave me the intel was that he was talking about some band (don't remember which) and he goes "Oh they're GOATed...like Blink, and Pantera." and I thought "that sounds like a 14 year old picking 'the best rock bands' by just picking bands they know.