I was previously only familiar with Amaranthe through their second album, so to be fair I listened to the song you posted. It sounds like the pop music that gets played at my job, just with metal instrumentation added, and those vocals apart from the growls just don't sound metal at all to me.

Anyway, there's no point in arguing as we clearly have different views about what makes something metal. I'll respect your opinion as long you respect mine.

I don't know if I could honestly accurately describe what makes something metal to me. I think the main thing is if it can be traced back to metal's roots in any way? I believe that metal certainly evolves, but it doesn't change. Blue Cheer is still just as metal as they were in 1968, and the emergence of death metal and black metal did nothing to change that.

I absolutely respect your opinon - agreeing with it or not.

The way I see it, metal has increadingly forged a path of it's own since it's inception. It only makes sense that the newest branches on that tree sound less like Sabbath than 70's metal or 80's metal. I know your view is adopted by Encyclopedia Metallum (assuming you know that site) and, surprise surprise, I completely disagree with their decisions on what to exclude from their databases.

Palm muted, heavily distorted riffs. Bass and drums that mainly reinforce the rhythm and power of the riffs. Most music that goes by that approach is metal in my eyes. Of course there's a little bit more to it than that, but that's the simple version.

Amaranthe may not sound a lot like proto metal, but the connection becomes clear if you go proto metal -> thrash -> death -> melodic death metal -> modern progressive metal -> the musical stylings of a band like Amaranthe.
That's more or less the lineage of their riffing style, I suppose.

Did someone say metal earworm?!

I never said that. I said they were incompetent.

That was a reply to Unitron, so I never said that you said that.
Don't say that I said that you said that because I never said that you said that.

Or something.

And I think they do what they do very well. Not seeing any lack of skill there, even if at least one vocalist seems a bit superfluous. If anything, they clearly know how to play their instruments on a professional level. Elize Ryd has a great voice. Maybe slightly wasted on that band, but oh well.

My view doesn't align with Metallum, I absolutely hate that site. They don't allow nu metal, funk metal, rap metal, most industrial metal, a handful of 70's metal, or pre-Sabbath metal. They also include many bands that I don't really think are metal.

The way I see it, is that metal is completely incompatible with pop music which Amaranthe borrows heavily from. Since its inception, metal has been a complete opposite from pop. With what I consider to be one of the first metal songs, it has this unique heaviness, darkness, and energy that screams heavy metal. It's a raw burst of emotion and distortion, and evokes feelings that pop music (at least from what I've heard) isn't allowed to express. There's no connection to the 60's pop of the time:

That's...interesting.

Obviously artists don't cancel one another out, but would you agree that death and black metal are heavier than proto-metal?

Is that just as a preference or do you think that metal cannot be integrated with pop? If it's the latter that's just silly since the two have influenced each other for decades. Just look at power metal.

Twiztid's newer rock songs these days tries to emulate that poppy, WWE metal and I'm not a fan.

This bandying about of the "pop" term seems odd if we don't define it, and if it's undefined how can we make the sweeping assessment that the fusion of metal and pop is impossible? Hell, I would consider the Black Album to be somewhat of a "pop metal" album- it's slower and extremely melodic with poppy hooks and clean vocals. It's a good album to boot!

Sure metal's integrated with pop music further in other genres, such as the aforementioned power metal, but bands like Dragonforce I find entertaining in their own right. And they're one of the poppiest power bands out there.

Ultimately, saying that metal is "completely incompatible" with "pop" music is far too broad a statement to make. Pop music has developed in tandem with and has inspired countless bands.

As for Blue Cheer- they, at the time of Vincebus Eruptum, were the heaviest of the lot. They were heavy ****ing metal. This, I believe, earns them the right to exist under the heavy metal moniker. Does that make them comparable to the more traditional understanding of metal (death, thrash, etc.)? I don't think so. Metal has certainly developed over the years, getting heavier and heavier as time progresses, but I think casting off a band as being not metal simply because they don't match the standards of bands that came about a decade after them is misjudged.

Death metal and black metal are heavier than proto-metal, but proto-metal is still proto-metal.

I've randomly had Blondie's "Dreaming" stuck in my head for the better part of a week.



The interesting thing about watching this video is how perfectly it shows the 70s turning into the 80s.

I guess that doesn't make much sense. What I meant was that while genres evolve, that doesn't cancel out what the genre was at its inception. Jazz is another example of this, a lot of modern jazz sounds nothing like the big band/swing of the 30's and 40's, but big band is still completely jazz.

Generally yes, but it also depends on the band. I personally find Blue Cheer to be heavier than some black metal bands I've heard, but that's because black metal seems to rely more on atmosphere and darkness than heaviness to my ears.

You both bring up good points, and I probably made my earlier statement in haste. I think every different kind of music has influenced another in some shape or form, but I do think there is only so far you can take an influence before it becomes more of something else. In Amaranthe's case, they have elements of metal yes, but in my opinion fall much more on the side of pop than metal. However, this is where genre definitions become much more subjective.

+1

That makes more sense, I definitely agree that modern music evolution doesn't cancel out past status. However, I would definitely say that a genre can evolve past the point of recognition--to carry on your analogy, compare Dixieland jazz with EAI and their only real connection is historical as opposed to anything sonic.

This conversation kind of reminds me of how I distinguish jazz from jazziness. After over of 100 years of widening the umbrella, jazz includes a LOT. I have no qualms calling stuff like Kenny G jazz even though he doesn't have an emotive bone in his body. Then there's jazziness where an artist revels in freedom, welcomes accidents with gusto, and emulates the spirit of what jazz is all about. There are jazz artists who abhor jazziness and there are punk bands that are more jazzy than 95% of jazz artists. It's a feeling.

I don't even know the band that you're talking about here, but since they identifiably incorporate metal elements despite a pop philosophy or aesthetic, I think that it's fair to call them metal. It's also fair to call them (what I assume) is ****e.

That's a great way of describing how I feel about metal. The difference between something that technically is metal and the metal spirit. Sticking with the bands talked about, I find Blue Cheer to fit my definitions of both metal and the feeling of metal; therefore, are a lot more metal than several modern metal acts such as Amaranthe.

You can be a competent guitarist while also being an incompetent bread maker. I believe this is the same with Amaranthe in that video except obviously replace "making bread" with "writing aesthetically congruous songs".

A god damn pop song that's also a metal song.

That song is awesome and metal. Hence why I retracted my previous statement.

and at the end of the day all that matters is if the music sounds good and how it makes us feel. This place would be really boring if we all agreed on everything, it's a lot more fun talking about different tastes and opinions than just being an echo chamber like many music sites are :beer:

You shouldn't use your guitar to make bread, I can agree with that.

This one was in my head constantly a few years ago.

Nneka - Heartbeat

Ever since I heard this version of this tune, I have to hear it at least once a day, or I feel "Off" for some reason.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOwBDlcasZ8

No Now is much better than Think: Peace

Duh.

I could listen to nothing but this song for the next week and be happy.

Sanne Salomonsen - Tosset

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuxnRMSSacw

It's stuck in my head really hard, but in the best way possible. Call it easily digestible mainstream crap, but that ending stretch is ****ing ecstatic.

Feel free to call me a peanut-brained neanderthal but this was featured in the Joaquin Phoenix Joker teaser and it made me so excited cause it proved that I'm not the only one who gives a **** about The Guess Who in 2018.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWJUPY-2EIM

Can't stop listening to this song lately.

if I don't get this out of my head soon it's liable to become an issue

There's an "anarchist folk" Spotify playlist that's been ruling my work shifts the last couple months whenever I get tired of podcasts and this track is my ****ing **** for the past few weeks. Billy Braggs has got a few ultra bangers.

I woke up with the chorus of this playing in my head this morning and I couldn't quite remember the entire song and which album it was from so I set out to go through the entire discography to find it. Luckily it was off the first one but I wouldn't have minded if it wasn't. lulz It's been a while since I listened to BS/BS all the way through.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8W6wsH5717M

^Fun blast from the past :)

My brain's been blasted too. A while ago, I bought David Byrne's American Utopia which is a live show in Broadway from 2018 (recommended btw). Since then, I've had that show's live version of Don't Worry About the Government playing regularly in my head.

I actually prefer it to the original studio version posted below.

What I like about it, besides it being generally pleasant and catchy (to me), is that it packs so much music and melody into a relatively short 3 minutes format. I often find it fascinating when a song separates from the standard verse, bridge, refrain format in pleasing ways. This song is like it doubles up on bridge and refrain.. or something.

That's an apt description. One of my favourite Talkig Heads songs!

Cool! Mine too, currently.. although my longest lasting Talking Heads earworm obsession was probably This Must Be The Place. It was regularly playing in my head for years. That's mostly over now, but it's such a sweet song <3

By the way, you should check out American Utopia if you get the chance. It's really good :)

I should, thanks for the rec!

This has been stuck in my head ever since I discovered Chico Buarque a few days ago. This album is my life currently

WTH does earworm mean is this some sort of slang ..????

why didnt u just say your current song stuck in your head

Thanks jadis :laughing:

Ha! I was trying to figure out why I dislike it. Maybe cause it was on heavy rotation on VH1 when I was a kid, or cause I was vaguely embarrassed by the Russian word (happens to me sometimes when I feel that the usage is weird). Or something about the video. Or I just don't like the song all that much, dunno. Maybe all of the above.

Will not skip it once I give Never For Ever a spin next time.

I get the Russian word part, I'd feel weird if someone would weirdly insert a Dutch word in a song. I actually think any video which features Kate's bizarre mime-artist-posessed-by-etheral-witch dancing is an asset. How on earth did she even come up with that stuff

It's a very common slang, and not particularly new. Perhaps it's not common slang where you live, in which case apologies.

She was delightfully unhinged when she was a pop starlet. It's a little sad that she seems to have gotten more self-conscious and perhaps embarrassed about some of her early appearances later on.

Its not as popular or well known, but I love her performance in this. Also features her brother :)