Frownland

Influence is a tricky thing to pin down, and even when you can pin it down, it's not always the best tool to define an artist's genre by. F. ex. Dimebag Darrell influenced me to pick up the guitar, but that doesn't suddenly make his music free improv/jazz/noise/modern classical/whatever. F. an ex. more pertaining to this discussion, This Heat had a massive influence on how I view song structure and interplay between band members, but that doesn't make their music free improv/avant-folk/etc. and vice versa (well, I do have some post punk explorations from time to time, but they were still very formative for me before I decided to go in that direction).

I think it's also important to note how fluid rock and metal's evolution is in relation to one another. It makes these discussions interesting because of the ambiguity at play between the sister genres.

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OccultHawk

This thread has exposed a ****load of ignorance. It's more sad than interesting.

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Frownland

I understand where you're coming from, arguing against conventional wisdoms is one of my favourite pasttimes. You still shouldn't let other peoples' opinions drive your own so much and each argument should be viewed on its own accord instead of being argued against in the abstract of points that that person didn't even make.

You're letting the basic Beatles fanboys' hyperbole drive how you're viewing this discussion, or at least that's how it seems looking at this discussion. It'd make your points look stronger if you made it clear how well you understand the other sides' points, which you often feign to do when you run off into an unrelated tangent. I do it too.

I'll give you what's at the base of the colourful opinions you posted that you bemoan so much:

* Sgt Pepper is a great album that I enjoy a lot/an album that means lots to me
* Sgt Pepper is a culturally important/influential album in rock/pop history
* Sgt Pepper is a great album, a masterpiece even.

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Spectralmusic

Yep, fair enough. Though I would say it's more a bunch of thoughts and views on the subject than a fully fledged argument but it all stems from the OP, maybe a little out of sequence but still.



And at that, the first of which is something subjective which can only really be disagreed upon. The second being something that could backed with evidence but obviously is tied down to history and society as we know it from the past 50 years.
The third is a quasar that you will be sucked into, never to return, the idea is blatantly vague for anything.

But nevertheless, these are the main claims made often that don't effect my view or experience on the album.

Up to this point, it should be obvious my main area of investigation is the second claim, historically, socially, culturally, politically etc. An honest and "accurate" claim of that can't truly be made until it has been put completely into linear context.

Yeah, well those are some thoughts again, take it or leave it

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Frownland

I hate hate hate hate bringing an argument down to popularity, but they were the cultural touchstones that brought those concepts that they didn't invent to people who wouldnt have heard them otherwise, and that is a gargantuanly important point to note in discussions of both cultural importance and influence. Not being first doesn't necessarily negate either of those things. I'm also certain that most people on here would openly acknowledge the innovation of the likes of Zappa or The Monks. They shouldn't be used as an excuse to not acknowledge an artist's value as far as influence goes That would be...obtuse.

I've explained that idea to both sides now. Am I just being a total idiot here?

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Spectralmusic

No, I see exactly where you're coming from and agree with your key points.
This point is exactly why it is extremely fascinating to dissect this claim and album in general because there are many layers to a claim like that (if taken seriously) and afterall we're not talking about some obscure album from the 50s, this is the Beatles afterall. So the implications are again, fascinating to me.

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Chula Vista

The Beatle's historical musical signifigance diluted down to "fanboys"..................

I'm going to bed shaking my head violently. George Martin is rolling in his grave. I guess Varg and Van Vliet really don't give a **** though.



Please.

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Spectralmusic

You've just sidestepped everything this discussion has been about

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OccultHawk

Not really. He's summing up these lame attempts to deny their importance and then the semi-apologetic backtracking. A lot claiming you're not claiming what you're claiming going on.

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Frownland

Not my point at all, did you read the following post I made, which notes The Beatles' historical significance? They have some pretty ignorant fans that like to shout about how The Beatles invented the violin and stupid **** like that. It's a product of being a pop artist: it brings ignorant casual fans into the fold and from what it looks like, those OTT people seem to be what Spectralmusic was referring to. And those people don't change their significance one bit.

So in other words, I'm responding to a hell of a lot of strawman arguments.

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