1983-2000 Vs 2000-2017
 

In terms of change isn't it pretty obvious that music saw more important evolutions from 83-00? And if there is a stagnation does it even matter? 86-87 is the best time block from the earlier period but 2016 was the most incredible year of music during this whole time span (my opinions, obviously).

Any comments as to what's going on?

Nostalgia is a hell of a drug.

Are you accusing me of being nostalgic or the last 17 years?

I think he's accusing you of being a junkie.

Of course not. You have lived through those times in music, if i'm not mistaken, so you have a much better foundation for this kind of discussion. It was just a joke. I just read your post and immediately thought of the wrong generation meme.

As far as personal taste, definitely '83-'00 as it encompasses the majority of my favorite metal, along with a ****load of other ****, whereas I don't much listen to nearly as much music from '01 and on. Any option that includes the 80s is pretty much gonna win for me.

No offense taken. Nostalgia is obviously an important part of this discussion. Perhaps we're presently in a state of perpetual nostalgia. Or older developments seem more revolutionary to me because I was younger. What if we took another 17 year chunk 66-83? To me the first two 17 year chunks both saw more development. Maybe the obsession with newness and novelty became dull. Or maybe my hypothesis (stolen from Mark Fisher, btw) won't stand up to scrutiny.

To be clear I'm not interested in the quality of the music but rather the degree to which pioneering music came about. It seems to me that the earlier time chunk wins that contest hands down when it comes to metal.

And Bat, since you did qualify your statement as personal taste, let me ask you, how important is whether or not a band is pioneering important to you? Is their something about breaking important new ground that makes the music more enjoyable than a fantastic copycat?

I'm more concerned with whether an artist has a singular sound than them being actually original. ICP is a great example: they were more or less ripping off Ice Cube and Esham at the start of their career, but they did it with an approach and personality that set them apart from pretty much everybody, so I don't really care that they weren't bringing much new to the table (although I guess it's possible that their late-90s/early-00s stuff was more original, but I just might not know who they were then ripping off). But I also love a ****load of unoriginal hacks who just did that sound better than others. So I guess the only thing that's important to me is if the music sounds good. *shrug*

The Message wasn't even released until '82 according to wiki. Hip hop had a lot of growing to do in 81.

Obviously, the Esham connection is easier to see. Why, in particular, Ice Cube? Also, as you know, I've had your back with ICP but I find it difficult to think of them as better than Esham and not even in the same universe as Cube. Really?

1. The Ice Cube connection is really with their first album, which sounds like a charmingly cut-rate Amerikkka's Most Wanted. Obviously they can't impersonate Ice Cube well enough for it to be totally apparent, but they were definitely on dat Ice dick. Even the production was taking as much influence from Cube as they could with as little money as they had.




2. It's not that I think they're better than Ice Cube or Esham as MC's, but I just like listening to ICP more. Like I said, they had a unique approach and personality that makes them one of the most unique groups in hip hop, and even if I can't relate to ICP's mentality or message they somehow still click with me to a far greater degree than Cube or Esham.

3. I had no idea you liked ICP. Either I missed that post or you were drunk and thought you'd made a post you didn't. What are your thoughts on ICP, juggalos, and Psychopathic in general?

Are you claiming that hip hop started in or around the Bowery?

@Occult Hawk - Just in case you missed my post.

ICP is funny, colorful, brilliantly entertaining, and surprisingly very well produced. I actually consider them a litmus test band. If you can't admit ICP is fun take the ****ing stick out of your ass. I suspect people who claim not to like them are more concerned with being associated with their admittedly immature fanbase than their honest aesthetic concerns. I love Juggalos and think there really is a difference a Juggalo and a Juffalo. I love that Down with the Clown Till I'm Dead in the Ground. Right up there with the Kiss Army and Dead Heads. What a fanbase! Remember those kids whose baby died and they had a big Juggalo funeral? Wow. It's like Dimebag in the Kiss Koffin! YouTube clips Tia Tequila being harangued at the gathering. lol. I like her, too. She thought her tits would win the crowd over but these weren't no Hell's Angels! But the bands on the label... I have to try to go that far. I guess ICP did what needed doing. I don't need a bunch of KISS clones either.

I didn't know they headed into Manhattan and stole a bunch of **** during a blackout. Nice.

I had some good times with juggalos, but god damn can it get retarded around juggalos! And that's only the second time I've ever heard "juffalo" lol. I'd begun to think it wasn't a thing.

And hell yeah to your post. "Down with the Clown" is fit as ****.

I'm too anal to be find boring ass ICP entertaining.

In response to the OP, I think it's hard to say. I find a lot of innovation going on today but not to the extent of creating a scene around it, which I think was more common in the earlier period. It might have something to do with the medium, with people being more likely to listen to physical albums than bandcamp or soundcloud streams. I think that factor is taking away from the local music community and in the face of all the extra music out there, it's harder to make an impact on the music world in the same way that you used to, but it's also easier in some ways a la Death Grips and such. So maybe pioneering was more prevalent back then.

Tl;Dr I have no ****ing idea which one is better or more innovative. I like them both a lot in different ways.

Well I'm way too old but whenever I would strike up conversations with their fans mostly I'd get shock that a fat old **** like me would like them but once I could rattle off a few songs they would be like...hmmmm... but I would make it clear that I was merely a casual fan and by no means am I claiming Juggalo status. I didn't want any of that Juffalo beat down for false claiming.

In the post 2000 era what music do you find especially pioneering (scene or no scene)?

I'd say we're going to need more than Death Grips.

Good post, btw. The impact of online streaming is a crucial component to this conversation.

Well if went by my favorite from a personal taste I would pick '66 to around about '83. I don't know why it's broken into seventeen years, but if I tried to be unbiased as possible I would still pick '66 to '82. During that era there was (what is called) "Freak Beat," Psychedelic Rock, Soul, Acid Rock, Acid Folk, Folk Rock, Progressive Folk, Progressive Rock, Blues Rock, Uk Glam Rock, Soft Rock, experimental music/experimental Rock, Dawg music, electronic music, Southern Rock, (early forms of Metal), Art Rock, Punk Rock, Disco, Post-Punk, New Wave, Funk, Jazz-Fusion, NWOBHM, minimal synth, Reggae/Dub, and a few others. I am also a fan of music from 2000-2017, and I notice that a lot of bands take inspiration from music '66 to '83. Even hip hop samples their break beats from the drum breaks on late 60s R&B records.

Even during those years the method of recording changed as well. That time period saw the end of mono tape recording, to the birth of digital recording. George Martin said that Sgt. Pepper was one of the last albums recorded on (what he called) a three track at EMI. The first CD released was in Japan was 52nd Street by Billy Joel in 1982.

The 17 year thing is just to use 2000 as an arbitrary round number cut off point.

You make a great case for the oldest 17 year set. It's also very interesting to consider the impact sampling has had on how people think of new music. It's also interesting to consider what Frown said about there being an actual physical scene as opposed to a more online less need for face-to-face experience. Maybe the less visceral online experience makes people less inclined to be a part of something they feel is revolutionary.

I wouldn't equate innovation with pioneering, since the latter implies an impact on the music world at large and it's too early to say tbh.

As far as innovation, Matana Roberts' Coin Coin Chapter Three is a great example. I see a lot of innovation in hip hop, like Moor Mother extrapolating on Matana's and Sun Ra's ideas through the lens of industrial hip hop. Shabazz Palaces is another good example. Outside of hip hop, there's The Caretaker's step forward for turntablism, Richard Dawson's new bent on Irish folk, Kurushimi's blackened samurai metal (that isn't as cheesy or as racist as that sounds), who are building on ideas from Zu. Bands like Ehnahre, Yowie, Wolves in Sheepskin, and Jute Gyte are taking metal all kinds of cool places. I also like Stian Westerhus's new album quite a bit because of how new yet familiar it sounded to me.

There's all kinds of cool stuff.

There's a **** ton to respond to in that post but first I want to say Pitch Black Star Spangled is a GREAT record.

I'm leaning toward 83-00. But I think it's lot easier to pick out what was truly pioneering once a significant amount of time has passed so I my opinion is probably colored by that.

Fair enough.

Let's grant Frown this excellent point

On Matana Roberts I found this interview where she seems to be addressing a similar issue


BOMB Magazine — Matana Roberts by Christopher Stackhouse

Overall music definitely evolved more between 1983-2000. I can find songs from 2000 that sound similar to typical music from today, but less so music from 1983 that sounded like typical music in 2000. The same goes in terms of fashion.

Why do you think that is?

Radiohead seems like an almost definitive example of one the first new era bands that managed to be great without offering anything new. Compared to Floyd who were extraordinarily groundbreaking.

Lol good one.

OK

If you're sticking to my 83-00 confinement then that's reasonable.

But if you're reaching beyond that and trying to compare where the two stack up in rock history all said in done I'm not even going to consider it.

I don't know if you're joking or not but besides the Chuck Berries I think you can defend that.

I think you might be right. Then I think hip hop, drum and bass, house, jungle - not totally sure.

The issue of Rolling Stone from January 2010 was the 50 best albums and songs of the decade and that issue changed my life as far as appreciating music more than the average listener and made me an enthusiast. I choose the 00's to now not because it's the era that exposed a lot to me but because the production of newer records from the past 20 years sound better to me than anything that came out in the 70's and 80's. Ignorant opinion, I understand. It ain't changing though.

Nice.

The 21st century has certainly had some of the greatest music ever made, and that's a fact.

Please name 5 of the records that sound the least like anything before 2000.

Thanks, I wanted to make even a greater case, but I didn't want to be too wordy about it.

Well I'm sure people who like EDM, dub step etc think they are part of something revolutionary (as far as music innovation goes), and they gather at clubs so there is still a social aspect to it too. There always been time where you listen to music on your own or with a crowd. What has change is the size of the band starting with big bands of the Jazz era to a five piece R&B band to fourrpiece Rock band etc etc then down to a single DJ. You loose that face-to-face when you loose the need for musicians.

I think the internet sorta reclaims listening to music being a social event. When people would listen to the radio or records/CDs own thier own, that kinda thing replaced music being a social event where you would gather at a dance and listen to music and socialize. Listening to recorded music is often times a solitary event, even now e.g. listen to music on your ipad with earbuds. Music forums and social music streaming website (e.g. plug.dj) get people socializing over music again. Still not quite the face-to-face experience though as a band and a live crowd.

I was 14 years old, give me a fucking break you fruit. Legitimately though, Radiohead, Wilco, White Stripes, The Strokes, The Flaming Lips, Yeah Yeah Yeahs, Fiona Apple, Bright Eyes, TV On The Radio. That's a small fraction of what that issue exposed me too. Forever indebted to Rolling Stone :love: