The Message wasn't even released until '82 according to wiki. Hip hop had a lot of growing to do in 81.

Obviously, the Esham connection is easier to see. Why, in particular, Ice Cube? Also, as you know, I've had your back with ICP but I find it difficult to think of them as better than Esham and not even in the same universe as Cube. Really?

1. The Ice Cube connection is really with their first album, which sounds like a charmingly cut-rate Amerikkka's Most Wanted. Obviously they can't impersonate Ice Cube well enough for it to be totally apparent, but they were definitely on dat Ice dick. Even the production was taking as much influence from Cube as they could with as little money as they had.




2. It's not that I think they're better than Ice Cube or Esham as MC's, but I just like listening to ICP more. Like I said, they had a unique approach and personality that makes them one of the most unique groups in hip hop, and even if I can't relate to ICP's mentality or message they somehow still click with me to a far greater degree than Cube or Esham.

3. I had no idea you liked ICP. Either I missed that post or you were drunk and thought you'd made a post you didn't. What are your thoughts on ICP, juggalos, and Psychopathic in general?

Are you claiming that hip hop started in or around the Bowery?

@Occult Hawk - Just in case you missed my post.

ICP is funny, colorful, brilliantly entertaining, and surprisingly very well produced. I actually consider them a litmus test band. If you can't admit ICP is fun take the ****ing stick out of your ass. I suspect people who claim not to like them are more concerned with being associated with their admittedly immature fanbase than their honest aesthetic concerns. I love Juggalos and think there really is a difference a Juggalo and a Juffalo. I love that Down with the Clown Till I'm Dead in the Ground. Right up there with the Kiss Army and Dead Heads. What a fanbase! Remember those kids whose baby died and they had a big Juggalo funeral? Wow. It's like Dimebag in the Kiss Koffin! YouTube clips Tia Tequila being harangued at the gathering. lol. I like her, too. She thought her tits would win the crowd over but these weren't no Hell's Angels! But the bands on the label... I have to try to go that far. I guess ICP did what needed doing. I don't need a bunch of KISS clones either.

I didn't know they headed into Manhattan and stole a bunch of **** during a blackout. Nice.

I had some good times with juggalos, but god damn can it get retarded around juggalos! And that's only the second time I've ever heard "juffalo" lol. I'd begun to think it wasn't a thing.

And hell yeah to your post. "Down with the Clown" is fit as ****.

I'm too anal to be find boring ass ICP entertaining.

In response to the OP, I think it's hard to say. I find a lot of innovation going on today but not to the extent of creating a scene around it, which I think was more common in the earlier period. It might have something to do with the medium, with people being more likely to listen to physical albums than bandcamp or soundcloud streams. I think that factor is taking away from the local music community and in the face of all the extra music out there, it's harder to make an impact on the music world in the same way that you used to, but it's also easier in some ways a la Death Grips and such. So maybe pioneering was more prevalent back then.

Tl;Dr I have no ****ing idea which one is better or more innovative. I like them both a lot in different ways.

Well I'm way too old but whenever I would strike up conversations with their fans mostly I'd get shock that a fat old **** like me would like them but once I could rattle off a few songs they would be like...hmmmm... but I would make it clear that I was merely a casual fan and by no means am I claiming Juggalo status. I didn't want any of that Juffalo beat down for false claiming.