Separating the Art from the Artist
 

So this happened today: https://www.reddit.com/r/indieheads/...Z3&sh=c6288f5e

I know we've discussed this before, but I feel like it's a bigger issue than two odd pages can fully summarize. What do you guys really think about listening to artists who've done abhorrent things in the past? How does it affect your opinion of them and the music? Or can you just avoid the person altogether and focus on what you like about the music?

I love Burzum.

As do I.

****ty people can make awesome music, but I imagine it helps if it isn't sappy, indie twat music that you're supposed to cry and eat ice cream to, like whatever the **** you seem to be talking about. I guess you're supposed to connect with it or whatever women do with music.

Being an indie twat is a way worse offense than being a Nazi murderer.

This isn't the direction I thought the thread would take for some reason.

Here's a question...

Do you like The Beatles?

If the answer is no, you're allowed to have an opinion on this matter.
If the answer is yes, shut up, because John Lennon was a huge twat and therefore your opinion is nullified.

Okay, so that was mostly in jest. You're allowed to have an opinion, and so am I. My opinion is that if you avoided all music made by douchebags, perverts, rapists, murderers, twats, greedy twats, assh*les, domestic abusers, scumbags, and total f*cking lunatics...then have fun listening to Dave Grohl for the rest of your life.

Life is short. Enjoy what you enjoy. Just don't deny the fact that they're awful and maybe think about sending them money directly and you can be a decent human being.

Case and point. I love Swans. I buy Swans albums, shirts, and concert tickets. Michael Gira is a deplorable c*nt. I still love Swans because there are other members of the band but I will not support Michael in solo work ever again. Christoph Hahn is too awesome to not support because Gira is a douchebag.

That's how I see it at least.

This is how I see it too. A lot of other people go at lengths to discredit these bands and denounce everything they've ever done at the mere announcement of claims like these, and it's really unfortunate that they be wiped from history like this with more recent allegations (Beach Slang, Cheap Girls, now PWR BTTM) who usually have one member do wrong and then are discredited by former fans.

I think there's a threshold and a ratio. How much of their ideologies flow into their music, and how ****ed is their ideology.

In the case of this band, they speak out against this sort of thing and have been a platform for the past couple years for the LGBT community and support for for them. When something like rape allegations and the extreme anti-queer language Ben uses (which I have heard of before this), it makes sense that the fanbase would abruptly turn their backs on them.

Is it just this one guy? Or is it all members? If it's just him I'm essentially just going to repeat Exo's point.

Both members have been accused and both members pushed their LGBT support to the forefront of the band's idealogy.

I guess they deserve the backlash. Especially when you consider how dishonest they were with their fanbase.

If the allegations are true, of course. But should this mean the music itself be taken less seriously?

Maybe this is a special case, because much of the enjoyment of their music to some fans was their stance and message of the lyrics.

Unless an artist's ideology seeps into his/her art, I separate the art from the artist. I.e. I have no problem with enjoying music made by racists or rapists as long as the music itself does not condone racism or rape. If you boycott music made by people who have done abhorrent things, you wouldn't even be able to listen to this:

They sound ****ty, but I'm curious...





Tristan, you shouldn't stop listening to PWR BTTM because they're rapy. You should stop listening to PWR BTTM because they are ass.

Jokes on you I never even listened to them that much to begin with. Bulb and Qwertyy are huge fans though.

I swear to god they need to start giving out testosterone booster shots, so nobody will want to listen to any more of this weak sauce and we can stop Pwr Bttm before they hurt anyone else.

So you want them to be as masculine as possible?

I'm with Bats. That was awful.

What's wrong with that?

i'm not reallly a fan of that song, but i dig the band. i get the whole separating the art from the artist thing, and it might be the more rational route, but the accusations (? seems like too much of a dismissive word) are still pretty disheartening / fucked up to read about. even more so for pwr bttm if you consider their ally status and how much they seemed to promote a safe place (?) for their fans; it's a pretty integral part of their music

Exactly, if you stopped listening to music because the artist who made it did something you don't like, you'd have nothing left :D

I bought a Durrty Goodz album once, he's racist and an idiot, but I liked the album so I got it. I've bought all of Maniac's releases and he has done some horrible stuff but it's not gonna stop me listening to stuff I like and buying the releases.

What did they do mate?

Also yeah to add to my post I'd draw the line at supporting an artist if I knew the money was funding something dodgy.

I personally just got a lobotomy

this is the first ive heard of them lol

I assume he's talking about Phil Spector, who produced and basically did everything with that record other than sing it.

As you probably know, I find it hard to separate art from artist in that way. I mean, I wouldn't necessarily turn off a Gary Glitter song if my legs and arms were amputated, but I do draw the line at Lostprophets, whose vocalist Ian Watkins was guilty of child abuse in the worst possible way, and the reasoning I give for never listening to their music again (other than that it wasn't really all that great in the first place) is that every time I hear that **** sing I want to punch his face in, so I could no longer enjoy the music.

But yeah, I'm sure most artists have skellys in the clos, and as they're dragged out I'd (if their music mattered to me) take it on a case by case basis. I don't necessarily have a problem with Burz, for instance. It can't be a blanket thing, but you do have to I think draw your own line over which you won't step, or will step back from.

Edit: I couldn't even make it through half of that crap. What an awful song.

The Lost prophets case was so fucked that I almost cried. The fact that anyone can do what he did with no remorse makes me sick to my stomach. He deserves to be sentenced to death.

Amen to that, brother. :mad:

I shouldn't have went back and read the sentencing. He got 29 years and possibility for parole when he serves 2/3 of that. :banghead:

Sig worthy stuff there, Batlord! :laughing:

Almost everything The Batlord writes is sig-worthy.
And so is this.
:)

You'd make me blush if I had feelings.

I should just qualify this statement by placing a caveat here: this does not include in any way that **** Watkins. What he did is unforgivable and he should and hopefully will burn in Hell, if it exists. There are no mitigating factors to his crime. None.

But that said: I think often, for me at least, the question can also be one of historical or present, let's call it bad behaviour, hereafter referred to as bb, cos I'm lazy. If the bb took place when the artist was young, ie before he or she became famous, then perhaps (depending on the bb in question) for me, it might not matter as much. Similarly, if the bb occurred AFTER the person's career had ended, again, maybe not so bad. I'm not trying to downplay the crime, not in any way, but if I can listen to the music knowing the person was not engaged in that behaviour when they wrote or sang that song, then it isn't as hard to take. Gary Glitter is a perfect case, although I don't particularly like his music. He was famous in the 70s but only, so far as I know, started travelling to the Far East for underage sex later in his life. So I can listen to his music (if I have to) knowing he was not engaging in this sort of bb when that music was around.

Varg, too. While I can't excuse or condone what he did, I find it uplifting that he was able to compose such fine music while imprisoned. Rather than fume and plot and look to the day he'd be released and would reoffend (I don't know if he did or not) he spent his incarceration doing what he loved, killing Jews, I mean, making music. Sorry. So that for me kind of softens the blow.

I guess I'm lucky, in that most of the bands I listen to are boring and safe, so it's unlikely that Rick Wakeman or Peter Gabriel are going to rape anyone, but if they did, I would then have to think seriously about what that meant. However, enjoying their music for so long I think that I might be able to get past any bb, again depending on how serious it was.

I'll throw my two cents in.

Overall it comes down to whether or not I am directly supporting poor behavior or not. I feel no guilt whatsoever listening to the music of people who do bad things, as long as it is quality music. However, I will in no way support artists who dare to act in such disgusting manners. I can buy a Swans disc and know that the money is, hopefully, still going to the other members of the band. If the music itself is good enough and the person is bad enough, I'll just pirate it, or worse stream it on Spotify (since apparently no one gets paid there except the label). Most of the time though, and especially with the OP's case, the band is bad enough where I just don't care about their music and only the people they may have hurt.

Hey if you wanna know what Varg's up to just check out his Youtube channel. He will tell you everything that's going on with him and the entire rest of the world.

https://www.youtube.com/user/ThuleanPerspective

What TH said.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Lana_Clarkson

I presume you're talking about that indie thing, not "Be My Baby"?

Nah. Not interested thanks.
Of course. BMB is a classic.

But you'd love Office Space.

I typically don't read into the lives of the musicians I listen to, usually if they've done something unforgivable I don't know about it and would prefer not to so that I continue listening to the music for the music.