What makes someone a piano\guitar player?
 

Hello, I've been thinking about this very often but I just can't explain it. I have a keyboard in my house and I can play many songs and pieces of music, I learned them by synthesia, I can't read or write music sheet but I noticed that I'm improving because I used to find many songs hard to play but now they're much easier,could this be possible? I mean that playing an instrument will be much easier and you'll be professional if you keep practise and learn songs without even knowing notes\chords\etc. Anyway, I know a lot of artists and bands who know nothing about writing or reading music from sheets. How did they become to what they are now?

What makes them artists if they can't read music sheets? Let's suppose you teached someone how to play thousands of songs on piano but he still can't read music sheets and don't know about chords and stuff. Is he a piano player? I'm just trying hard to express my idea, many singers play piano but they can't read music sheets, so basically there isn't something special about them, they just play what they used to practice! (For example: Chris Martin - Coldplay. Thom Yorke- Radiohead)


I'd be happy to explain more if you want..

If you can play an instrument, you are a player of that instrument. Being a player doesn't denote anything about talent or knowledge of traditional music theory.

^ I agree. I think though, there's a difference between a guitar player and a musician.

What difference would that be exactly?

I sh*tty guitar player is a sh*tty musician.

Well, a guitar player, or anyone who plays an instrument is not a musician. In my opinion a musician is someone who understands the theory behind the music as well as create the music.

So there are no musicians in a badass cover band (I think one exists somewhere) because they don't read music or create original music?

My buddy is an excellent guitar player and multi-instrumentalist and can only barely read music. Does this make him only half a musician?

I'm curious.

Well, i honestly didn't give my full definition. I gave the overly simplified version. The musician, in my opinion, is the guy who has a good understanding of the music. He uses it to create his own music. So a cover band is not a group of musicians. They are players. Unless someone in the band can do the thing I described and just isn't doing them in his cover band.

As for your friend, I don't know him, but I'm going to make the assertion that he understands theory. Cause an inability to read music but understanding theory do not go hand in hand. So if he has a good understanding of theory I would consider him a musician.

That closes out self taught musicians (Keith Moon is a good example) and people who don't adhere to Western music theory. Playing the instrument to make music makes you a musician. It's like I was saying with art in another thread: just because someone is a musician doesn't mean that they're inherently good.

I think that a lot of people have been swindled into thinking this way because of art being in the hands of the elite for so long. It's all democratized now, let's call a spade a spade.

I can't comment on your Keith moon example. But i think if we call anyone who picks up an instrument a musician, it kind of demeans the word. And my definition of the word musician doesn't inherently mean they're good. It simply means they are creating music with an understanding of theory. Just because you understand theory doesn't mean you automatically make good music.

I've played in many bands, performed in many shows and venues, written over a hundred songs, produced 7 albums, I play guitar, bass, mandolin, ukulele, drums, keyboards, and sing, and I host an open mic twice a month where I perform for at least an hour each night, but I've never learned theory, or how to read sheet music. According to 1bm I'm not a musician. That's alright, I've always considered myself just a hack anyway.

I'm sorry. But to play that many instruments and have written as many songs as you say, I feel like you would have at least picked up on some music theory. Like scales or something.

That's not what I said. Anyone who plays music on an instrument is a musician. It only demeans the word if you put the concept of a musician on a double standard-y pedestal like I mentioned earlier. Also, your faith in theory suggests that you're not a musician because there's quite a bit more to music than that.

I laughed at these parts... is that ok?

What double standard?

And it's easy to see that there is more to music than just theory. A number of great artists had a lack of understanding of theory. And you're right. I'm not a musician. I don't understand theory very well if at all.

If you hired someone to paint your house and they painted your driveway with a broom, would you say "he's not even a painter!" or "that is the dumbest and worst painter I've ever seen in my life."? Music is for everyone, some are better than others at it, and thinking that you have to adhere to Western music theory or have a certain level of understanding of it is simply elitist.

Most musicians would highly disagree with how highly you place theory in the importance of a musician. It's very simple: A musician is someone who makes music. Theory can be and often is a tool that helps a musician along with that, but it is by no means necessary. Ever heard delta blues? Those guys were the realest musicians on the planet but a lot of them couldn't afford classical training so they took it into their own hands and became brilliant musicians of their own.

Brother if you understood theory a little more I'm pretty certain that you wouldn't think the same way about what is and isn't a musician.

Music theory is kind of stupid tbh

Uh, no. I'd say, "I'm not paying you and you're removing that from my driveway. Do you seriously not know what a house is?"

*Ahem* I'll yell it this time! SOME OF THE GREATEST ARTISTS OF ALL TIME DIDN'T UNDERSTAND MUSIC THEORY VERY WELL IF AT ALL.

And they're still musicians. Thanks for helping prove yourself wrong.

No. You said I put music theory on a pedestal. I don't. I put musicians who spend years learning despite the needlessness of it on a pedestal. Then you demean them and their hardwork by saying anyone can be a musician by just picking up a instrument.

Scales? Barely. Like I said, I'm just a hack.

Sure. Why wouldn't it be.

At least you can have a good laugh at yourself. I tip my hat to you sir.

Well, they can. Words don't change meaning because you suffer from some weird idealism when it comes to musicians.

:laughing: you're way off base and are putting the concept of music and art on a pedestal dude. You're using the same logic as people who think that gay marriage is bad because it somehow invalidates traditional marriage.

Also, "just picking up an instrument" is a great way to misrepresent my point, good job.

Yes. I am putting music and art on a pedestal. That's where it should be. And you certainly made it sound like you're saying a anyone who picks up a instrument is a musician.

So glad bm1 wasn't a member when the "What is music" thread was active.

Well there goes your credibility.

It's 1bm. That makes it sound like one bowel movement.

Gross.

I just want to get this straight. You're on a site about music, modding it, and you don't put music on a pedestal?

Sorry, dude.
Also: lol.

I do. I ****ing love music, but not to the point where I stop considering musicians musicians.

Accept you said I lost my credibility when I said I put music on a pedestal. But know you're saying that you do. Ok, everything you say is complete mush.

When it pushes you to the point of closemindedness, yes. Yes, you lose your credibility after that point.

Getting back to the OP it's important to note that knowing music theory and being able to read standard notation are not the same - many guitarists have a good knowledge of theory in the sense of being able to find chord inversions and substitutions and knowing what notes will sound good over a particular harmony, without being able to read standard notation. In fact guitarists have only been using standard notation since about 1770, before then it was always tablature of some sort.

I do about 60 to 80 gigs a year (on guitar) and probably only 3 or 4 of them would require reading - for example if I'm working with a classical singer who gives me a score or working with music theatre. Frownland is right about western notation having a very specific bias for Western sounding music. Many flamenco forms work very badly in standard notation - a solea for example tends to have accents at the end of it's phrases, when bar lines imply accents at the beginning. a siguiriya has a rhythm cycle of 2 + 2 + 3 + 3 + 2, which ends up as a mess if you try and use time signatures. Indian music fares even worse.

well i play guitar so that makes me a guitar player.
seems pretty simple
i mean i dont have a piano hanging on my wall next to my charts.
there is a ukulele though