Frownland

Battleship Potemkin. Your argument is invalid.

__________________

Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth.

DeadChannel

So art can never take positions on things? Sounds to me like you want art to be disconnected from reality. There are a whole lot of topics that, no matter what side you take, are inherently political. Should art not be allowed to tackle these issues?

Zhanteimi

Not at all, DeadChannel. Notice I wrote that it can cross the line. It doesn't always. I left my comment vague on purpose since there are shades of grey between art and propaganda. I think that art should strive first and foremost for two things: self-expression and communication. Some works lean one way, some the other, and the best, in my opinion, blend both perfectly. Of course politics might come in, but when things become completely political, that's when the line is crossed into propaganda. It's a tightrope walk.

DeadChannel

Alright, fair enough, I think I can pretty well agree to that. Imo, though, I think that, as long as the thing is good of its own accord, I'm pretty okay with a lot of overt political themes, even ones that I disagree with. I'm personally as drawn to politics in music as I am in real life.

Zhanteimi

A good example of what I'm talking about is Green Day's American Idiot, not just the song but the whole album. Now, I think it's a masterpiece, but it skates really close to the line of propaganda on a couple songs. The title track is probably the most obvious example.

DeadChannel

For me it's about the intention of the work: does this exist to make a point, or does this exist for art's sake. If it already works on other levels, than no amount of politics will change this. Even if American Idiot was a Neo-Nazi song, it'd still be hella catchy.

Zhanteimi

But isn't that the danger if it's catchy and it's propaganda?

DeadChannel

Perhaps, although I'm not sure that immediately invalidates those portions on the song, artistically.

This is something I struggle with a little bit, listening to music I like but ideologically disagree with. For instance, I really can't get behind a lot of Danny Brown's views, particularly on women etc. Nevertheless, the dude has got one of the most unique flows in the game, and raps over beats that I really dig, so I tolerate it. On the other hand, I can vibe with a lot of the politics espoused by Lupe Fiasco, but I really don't enjoy his music very much.

I'd like to think that people can think for themselves, and be critical of the views of their favourite bands or whatever, but idk. Although I totally understand being turned off of a thing by the politics, especially since this ****'s subjective anyway.

Zhanteimi

Like, for me, even if I agree with the politics, I still cringe at it being injected into music. Lemme go back to American Idiot. I agree with them that Americans are idiots by and large and that rednecks are idiots and if you want to bomb people in other countries because 'Murica then you're an idiot and if you want to kill fags then you're an idiot.

I agree even more with "Jesus of Suburbia". He is, indeed, a lie. You can't swing a dead cat without hitting a hypocrite (yours truly included). But for me, the problem is that I see such art racing towards that propaganda line.

You know what? Just typing it out helped me understand my position better. Politics are so much a product of their times, so if an artist puts too much politics in his art, it dates it. I guess that's partly why I find it distasteful. Art should be eternal. The other part being that music is the easiest way to brainwash people, so if you inject politics into something catchy or popular, you can sway a lot of listeners.

Blank.

So your saying that art should be less advert about the politic? Not show it outright?