Lisnaholic

Great question, DWV!

After the trouble MB had trying to define music, I foresee endless headaches trying to sort out genre definitions that everybody can agree on. * put gif of popcorn-eating moviegoer *
Some genre labels are just plain confusing anyway, like the "Post-" ones you mentioned. Is post-punk still punk ? If it is, how can it come after itself? If it´s not, why is it mentioning Punk at all?

Also, similar to the discussion going on here about the meaning of "progressive", ( http://www.musicbanter.com/prog-psyc...ward-grim.html ) , there is surely similar doubt about the label, "avant-garde". To me it means modern and experimental, which Stockhausen once was, but if I´m a musician copying or inspired by Stockhausen today, how avant-garde am I?

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Plainview

Yeah, Prog is a really fuzzy one. I mean, songs that use Rock structures, but with orchestral and jazz elements and generally drawn out song lengths and instrumentations sort of covers it, but there's also a sort of narrative element to most of the music considered 'prog'. Then there's Post Rock, which also sort of fits that description too, though the music that results is actually quite different. It's a minefield.

As for Avant-Garde, I don't really see it as a genre at all, as the boundaries change constantly as music naturally progresses. I think a genre has to be pretty set from its inception; avant-garde and experimental are more descriptive add ones that inform you that the music will be challenging and innovative within its actual genre.

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Tristan_Geoff

Most "Post" genres (with the exception of post-rock are not genres at all but denote influence from a genre. So read post-punk as punk-influenced. These bands took cues from the punk scene but added some experimentation to the sound and focused more on artistic values than their predecessors. The reason some bands are considered post-punk that came before punk, is that they may have punk elements to their sound but sound a little more experimental.

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JGuy Grungeman

Although the misic existed, the scenes and the genre names can be made later. A fine example is how The Stooges were punk a decade before punk was an official genre. It was never a "genre" or a "movement" or a "scene." The Stooges were just a different band. Well, now we call those kinds of bands "protopunk" because they were bands that started the sound and helped influence a genre. Post-punk is a term for rock music that takes typical punk styles and puts less emphasis on the angst and hyperactivity of punk and puts more of an emphasis on emotion and ambience, feeling more like an advanced, modernized form of punk. Basically, post-punk is punk sounds being used for different purposes. The best example is Joy Division.

JGuy Grungeman

If you want more punk talk, hardcore punk is a more edgy version, more or less. It focuses more on aggression, carries a lot of yelling, and puts less restraint on time signatures whereas punk songs are usually tiny.

Basically, this short and simple chart should be a good emphasis
Rock - punk
Metal - hardcore

There you have it. What punk is to rock, hardcore is to metal.

grindy

Don't you mean 'What metal is to rock, hardcore is to punk'?

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JGuy Grungeman

Thanks.

Let me try again. Hardcore is basically metal punk.

Then there's post-hardcore. Post-hardcore keeps some of the aggression but tries to focus more on constructing songs. A good example of the difference between hardcore and post hardcore would be the differences between The Shape of Punk to Come and Young Machetes. "Shape" is a much better album, btw.

Neapolitan

Hardcore isn't another name for metal, it's adjective to describe those who were more serious to what they saw as the core values of Punk. Hardcore Punk is the natural evolution of Punk. It wasn't till Thrash that Metal started to pick up influences of Punk. Thrash bands evolved into Metal bands of the 90s.

At the time Hardcore Punk was out and about playing in abandoned buildings, while Metal was in it's day-glo Hair Metal stage playing arenas. There is nothing metal about Hardcore Punk, they were worlds apart. Heavy Metal for the most part always had the flashiness of a glossiest of Rock bands.

Just like both the words "rock and roll" been used in hundreds of songs (along with shake and rattle) before someone decided to call "Rock and Roll."

"Punk" was used, but it didn't really define a music and a movement till the mid-70s. Punk was a defining movement (or made to seem that way) and most that followed was labelled as post-Punk. I only guess no one decide to name the genre (that is known as the post-Punk) so they named it after the previous, more notable one. Same thing happens with post-Modern Rock, post-Hardcore, & post-Grunge.

Malcolm McLaren wanted the Sex Pistols to be labeled as "New Wave" but for whatever reason the Punk stuck. To confuse matters "New Wave" is synonymous with Punk, post-Punk, Cold wave, Synth Pop, and 80s Pop Rock. It strange to think about it but there was a time were recorded companies wanted "Punk" bands and they billed bands like Rockpile, and Elvis Costello and the Attractions as Punk.

Some people think of "Punk's" attitude as being obnoxious. The post-Punk attitude was more cold and aloft, and the lyrics were about darker subjects than New Wave. The post-Punk style could included clean guitars and single guitar lines while other was mix Avant-garde Jazz, and Funk. Where Punk fashion was a mix worn-out clothes that squatter wore, and Malcolm & his girlfreind's boutique clothe store. The post-Punk was little less tattered, but still a mix you find in Punk bands where often times members don different styles one would be in a t-shirts and leather jackets, someone else would wear a tie and untucked & unbuttoned dress shirt - how rebellious for the time!

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JGuy Grungeman

What I was trying to say is: hardcore is heavier punk, similar to how metal's heavier rock.

Tristan_Geoff

Technically, both those albums are post-hardcore (if you're indeed refering to the Blood Brothers' Young Machetes).

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