The rise and fall of musical genres

William_the_Bloody · 08-05-2015, 12:34 AM

Just a theory I have, but it seems much like empires, (Roman, Ottoman, British) musical genres seem to rise peak and then enter into a decline. There are very few genres I can think of where this is not the case, at least in Anglo speaking world.

I guess with technology and the changing of generations cultures are always in flux.

Jazz: Swing rises in the 20's and commercially peaks in the 40's before it declines. Jazz as a whole is still dominant throughout the 50's with pop acts and the rise of bebop and cool jazz, but inevitably begins a slow decent as it is eclipsed by rock sometime in the 60's. By the end of the 70's jazz becomes an underground niche genre. It's dominance is over.

Rock: There are so many different genres of rock, but on a whole it begins its ascent sometime in the 50's with the likes of Elvis Presley and Chuck Berry and hits peak interest in the 70's in what we now phrase as classic rock, and despite its continued dominance through the 80's it safe to say its been on the decline with it's last big commercial success coming from the early 90's, as its market dominance is challenged by other genres and changing technology.

Heavy Metal: Starts in the early seventies and begins its ascent around the late 70's with the NWOBM & bands like AC/DC, to become one of the most dominant genres of the 80's, peaking somewhere around the early to mid 80's before entering in a decline after 91 with the dominance of other youth culture genres taking its place. Despite this, it still remains popular throughout the 90's with ascent of alternative and Nu metal, and the 00's with metalcore, but it never regains the commercial dominance of peak metal in the 80's.

Rap: Starts in the early 80's and begins its ascent in the late 80's to become one of the most dominant genres of the 90's. Unlike heavy metal though, it remains strong throughout the 00's & beyond with superstars like Eminem, Kanye West & Kendrick Lamar, and the dominance of R&B in the pop charts, but nevertheless its popularity has been waning in recent years, leaving many critics to proclaim that rap is dead. Although it is now a hugely popular global phenomenon, it's safe to say it's not as popular as it once was, and that we have hit peak rap, either in the 90's or sometime in the early 00's.

Punk Begins it's ascent in the late 70's and becomes a popular underground genre throughout the 80's, before becoming a commercialized powerhouse in the early 90's with the onset of grunge and bands like Green Day and the Offspring. It retains its popularity somewhat throughout 00's with the ascent of screamo and the popularity of hardcore bands like Hatebreed and Converge ,before trickling down to a small underground musical niche.

Anyhow that my theory, I don't want to hog all the genres so feel free to add your own or to pick my theory apart, cheers wtb.

ElvisMan · 08-05-2015, 04:14 AM

Country music is probably the best example of this. Peaked in the 50's and 60's with Johnny Cash, Merle Haggard, and Faron Young. Then continued on pretty strong on through the 80's and 90's with a few great artists like Lyle Lovett, K.D. Lang, Carlene Carter, and The Judds. Then in the early 2000's Johnny Cash died and it completely turned to crap. It's probably the worst genre in music right now.

Trollheart · 08-05-2015, 05:13 AM

Great idea for a thread, William!

A lot of this is of course down to commercial popularity, ie what the radio plays, and how much money the genre brings in, in terms of concerts, promotions, merchandising even (not too many people would wear an "I love jazz" t-shirt) but another factor is this sort of desire for the younger generation to always despise their parents' music. Many kids would put down say jazz or big band in the 50/60s because it was "old people's music", although in all likelihood they never even listened to it properly. Same thing with punk vs prog and pop vs rock. There's an almost unconscious need to put down music seen as older, to be seen as "hip" or "with it" or "cool" or whatever the prevalent phrase is at the time, by latching on to the latest trends and being with the in-crowd.

So older music generally gets short shrift from the younger generation, and sadly, mostly these are the ones who buy the records that make up the charts, and therefore determine what is deemed popular and what we will hear on the basic radio.

Then of course you get revivals, when some music is seen as "retro" and is now cool. That 20/30s style was popular again for a while, mostly due to "Boardwalk Empire" and particularly in Britain, on the back of their (failed) Eurovision entry. Sometimes it comes back around, such as with prog in the 80s, to sort of fade out again, and sometimes it metamorphoses into something almost completely different, like "New" Country. Then you have genres crossing over, so that the best (or worst) of both worlds is achieved.

One thing is certain though: as you say, in another however many years, the current trend which is seen as cool will be villified by the kids as they groove to their new favourite genre, whatever it may be. The world turns, and music changes, but one thing remains the same: our belief that the music our parents listened to was crap, and our, in general, refusal to give it a fair trial and just dismiss it out of hand.

William_the_Bloody · 08-05-2015, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

Great idea for a thread, William!

Thanks, I would also tend to agree with your analyze of each generation needing to shed away the music of their parents. Sadly this means that all musical genres eventually fall out of vogue & descend back into an underground niche.

Quote:

Originally Posted by grindy

Does anyone know what the current situation with EDM is?
In the 90s techno was huge, when I was in my late teens/early twenties it was all about Jungle/DnB and House. Last trend I consciously witnessed was dubstep.
Is there a leading genre nowadays? Or is it pretty much fractured by now?

EDM is a tricky one because it's so technology driven its peak may have not been reached. For now you could do two things.

You could look at individual genres within EDM, for instance trip hop & progressive house started sometime in the late 80's and began its ascent in the early 90's to become one of the most dominant genres of the decade most notably in the UK & Europe. It peaks sometime in the mid late 90's (Trainspotting, Mezzanine) and then begins its descent in 00's as its eclipsed by the indie rock revival, The Strokes, White Stripes ect.

Or you could gamble and state that "heaven forbid" the current crop of EDM artists like Armin Van Buuren & Sweedish House Mafia is peak EDM.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Micco

Hip-Hop started in 79', it was being majorly pioneered in all aspects through 79' to around 86' then from 87' to a little after 94' is what is considered the Golden Era im which the Highest quality music came out of, from 94' to 00' it was good but becoming gradually more and more commercialized and is also the time when Master P and his record label got highly successful and Southern Hip-Hop started to dominate the scene, from 00' to around 07' Hip-Hop de-evolved into Rap and became extremely commercial and RnB thugs and nightclub rappers became the forefront and Emcees hardly existed on a successful front, from 06' to now rap has become an almost entirely different type of music sounding nothing like anything previous with the likes of the artists on the scene. Hip-Hop is still around but only in the cracks of the music scene and is mostly underground, so it's death started in the early 2000's and is gradually happening and everything becomes more commercialized, although the fan base for Oldschool Hip-Hop is growing so maybe in coming years there will be a resurgence in Hip-Hop oriented style of rap music.

Thanks Mico, I'm aware of the history and would completely agree that 87 to 94 is the golden age of rap, but it is it's commercialization with artists like Biggy and Jay Z that leads it to become a radio goliath dominating the pop charts through R&B by the early 2000's.

As per example, most true punk fans would probably murder someone for claiming that Green Day & the Offspring are better than Black Flag & the Dead Kennedys, but nevertheless this was peak punk. Green Day has probably sold more records than all the 80's American hardcore bands combined.

I may be in era though, I haven't checked the overall record sales of NWA and the Wu Tang Clan, but it could very well be the case they could be regarded in the same light as Floyd or Zeppelin.

Micco · 08-06-2015, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William_the_Bloody

Thanks Mico, I'm aware of the history and would completely agree that 87 to 94 is the golden age of rap, but it is it's commercialization with artists like Biggy and Jay Z that leads it to become a radio goliath dominating the pop charts through R&B by the early 2000's.

Exactly as I say then, Biggie's Ready To Die was 94' and Ready To Die came out 97', along with Jay-Z'z first album Reasonable Doubt (which I wouldn't call a hit) came out 96'. That's why I say the real process of of commercialization started 94' to 00'.

Wolfi65 · 08-20-2015, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

but another factor is this sort of desire for the younger generation to always despise their parents' music. Many kids would put down say jazz or big band in the 50/60s because it was "old people's music", although in all likelihood they never even listened to it properly. Same thing with punk vs prog and pop vs rock. There's an almost unconscious need to put down music seen as older, to be seen as "hip" or "with it" or "cool" or whatever the prevalent phrase is at the time, by latching on to the latest trends and being with the in-crowd.

So older music generally gets short shrift from the younger generation, and sadly, mostly these are the ones who buy the records that make up the charts, and therefore determine what is deemed popular and what we will hear on the basic radio.

Then of course you get revivals, when some music is seen as "retro" and is now cool. That 20/30s style was popular again for a while, mostly due to "Boardwalk Empire" and particularly in Britain, on the back of their (failed) Eurovision entry. Sometimes it comes back around, such as with prog in the 80s, to sort of fade out again, and sometimes it metamorphoses into something almost completely different, like "New" Country. Then you have genres crossing over, so that the best (or worst) of both worlds is achieved.

One thing is certain though: as you say, in another however many years, the current trend which is seen as cool will be villified by the kids as they groove to their new favourite genre, whatever it may be. The world turns, and music changes, but one thing remains the same: our belief that the music our parents listened to was crap, and our, in general, refusal to give it a fair trial and just dismiss it out of hand.

Works the other way, too.
A lot of older people will dismiss whatever music younger generations listen to, often without even giving it any sort of shot at all.
Seems to me many people of all generations get 'stuck' in the musical style of their first 20-some years or so and cannot ever leave this bubble.

It's interesting that someone mentioned Country, I'm having a very similar discussion with some of the folks at one of my local night spots. They are technically a 'Country' bar, but did, in their first 2 very successful years, also schedule bands that fell more into the 'alternative Country' or even 'Rock' genres, always to a packed house of mostly college- or grad student types.
They don't do that any more, Waylon, Willie, Merle & George pretty much rule the waves, which brings the crusty old cowboy guys back (who believe John Travolta is the greatest cowboy who ever rode a mechanical bull and Taylor Swift sux), but keeps the college crowd out. Result: Far fewer people, far lamer bands.
I'm trying to tell them to at least play some more contemporary Country, but maybe even that isn't good enough, I think Country may be over as a widely popular genre.

CoNtrivedNiHilism · 08-21-2015, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolfi65

I think Country may be over as a widely popular genre.

Not true.

The genre itself is still pretty popular.

William_the_Bloody · 08-21-2015, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolfi65

Works the other way, too.
A lot of older people will dismiss whatever music younger generations listen to, often without even giving it any sort of shot at all.
Seems to me many people of all generations get 'stuck' in the musical style of their first 20-some years or so and cannot ever leave this bubble.
But

I think you hit the nail on the head here. I use to think that I would never hit that stage and that I would always be open minded, but there comes a time when it is almost undignified to be blarring the latest indie music from your car stereo.

(If I went to a metalcore show, I'm pretty sure I would last 2 minutes before I could't handle being around drunken 21 year old white males trying to prove their tribal manhood)

That and when your younger & in the music scene you have dreams about being the next Massive Attack, ect. When your older you just have to accept the reality of survival.

It's not that I don't like new music, it's just that I don't care, and as result, I have less tolerance for something that doesn't sound recognizably appealing.

Trollheart · 08-21-2015, 10:17 AM

I agree and I think a lot of it has to do with the eternal "That's too loud/That's not loud enough" argument that goes on between the generations. As each new generation comes up, their music is, it seems, more aggressive and louder than that of their parents. Jazz gave way to rock, rock to metal and punk, metal and punk to hip-hop to a degree, and so on. Now, those of us that are considered (ahem) older think much of today's music is too loud, formless and ideally at this time soulless, while those who are younger think that what we listen to is boring, old and irrelevant. And so, I expect, it will always be.

There's also the, as you put it, tribal aspect, where it's considered "uncool" to listen to "old" music, and as everyone wants to be accepted, you get the herd mentality often in music appreciation, where I swear a large percentage of those who listen to today's music (sorry) do so more because it's the thing to do, the thing that makes you acceptable, rather than something they actively enjoy.

I was interested to see, when Ed Sheeran played here recently, of the four or so people stopped and interviewed and asked why they liked him, almost every response was "Uh, it's just great. The lyrics. The .... I just really like his music." Showing us that really (although in fairness these people were put on the spot, but still, if someone stopped me in the street and asked me why I liked my favourite band, I could talk their ear off with reasons) nobody KNOWS why they like Ed Sheeran, ergo, nobody really probably does actually like him, it's just a case of going with the crowd.

**Frownland** · 08-05-2015, 06:42 AM

So are we just talking about how a genre does commercially or as a whole? Because if it's the latter, I'd say that jazz world is still quite massive and thriving despite not being chart toppers.

08-05-2015, 12:34 AM	#1 (permalink)
William_the_Bloody Music Addict Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Sunnydale Cemetary Posts: 2,093	The rise and fall of musical genres Just a theory I have, but it seems much like empires, (Roman, Ottoman, British) musical genres seem to rise peak and then enter into a decline. There are very few genres I can think of where this is not the case, at least in Anglo speaking world. I guess with technology and the changing of generations cultures are always in flux. Jazz: Swing rises in the 20's and commercially peaks in the 40's before it declines. Jazz as a whole is still dominant throughout the 50's with pop acts and the rise of bebop and cool jazz, but inevitably begins a slow decent as it is eclipsed by rock sometime in the 60's. By the end of the 70's jazz becomes an underground niche genre. It's dominance is over. Rock: There are so many different genres of rock, but on a whole it begins its ascent sometime in the 50's with the likes of Elvis Presley and Chuck Berry and hits peak interest in the 70's in what we now phrase as classic rock, and despite its continued dominance through the 80's it safe to say its been on the decline with it's last big commercial success coming from the early 90's, as its market dominance is challenged by other genres and changing technology. Heavy Metal: Starts in the early seventies and begins its ascent around the late 70's with the NWOBM & bands like AC/DC, to become one of the most dominant genres of the 80's, peaking somewhere around the early to mid 80's before entering in a decline after 91 with the dominance of other youth culture genres taking its place. Despite this, it still remains popular throughout the 90's with ascent of alternative and Nu metal, and the 00's with metalcore, but it never regains the commercial dominance of peak metal in the 80's. Rap: Starts in the early 80's and begins its ascent in the late 80's to become one of the most dominant genres of the 90's. Unlike heavy metal though, it remains strong throughout the 00's & beyond with superstars like Eminem, Kanye West & Kendrick Lamar, and the dominance of R&B in the pop charts, but nevertheless its popularity has been waning in recent years, leaving many critics to proclaim that rap is dead. Although it is now a hugely popular global phenomenon, it's safe to say it's not as popular as it once was, and that we have hit peak rap, either in the 90's or sometime in the early 00's. Punk Begins it's ascent in the late 70's and becomes a popular underground genre throughout the 80's, before becoming a commercialized powerhouse in the early 90's with the onset of grunge and bands like Green Day and the Offspring. It retains its popularity somewhat throughout 00's with the ascent of screamo and the popularity of hardcore bands like Hatebreed and Converge ,before trickling down to a small underground musical niche. Anyhow that my theory, I don't want to hog all the genres so feel free to add your own or to pick my theory apart, cheers wtb.

08-05-2015, 04:14 AM	#2 (permalink)
ElvisMan The Hillbilly Cat Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Earth Posts: 89	Country music is probably the best example of this. Peaked in the 50's and 60's with Johnny Cash, Merle Haggard, and Faron Young. Then continued on pretty strong on through the 80's and 90's with a few great artists like Lyle Lovett, K.D. Lang, Carlene Carter, and The Judds. Then in the early 2000's Johnny Cash died and it completely turned to crap. It's probably the worst genre in music right now. Last edited by ElvisMan; 08-05-2015 at 04:25 AM.

08-05-2015, 05:13 AM	#3 (permalink)
Trollheart Born to be mild Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 404 Not Found Posts: 26,996	Great idea for a thread, William! A lot of this is of course down to commercial popularity, ie what the radio plays, and how much money the genre brings in, in terms of concerts, promotions, merchandising even (not too many people would wear an "I love jazz" t-shirt) but another factor is this sort of desire for the younger generation to always despise their parents' music. Many kids would put down say jazz or big band in the 50/60s because it was "old people's music", although in all likelihood they never even listened to it properly. Same thing with punk vs prog and pop vs rock. There's an almost unconscious need to put down music seen as older, to be seen as "hip" or "with it" or "cool" or whatever the prevalent phrase is at the time, by latching on to the latest trends and being with the in-crowd. So older music generally gets short shrift from the younger generation, and sadly, mostly these are the ones who buy the records that make up the charts, and therefore determine what is deemed popular and what we will hear on the basic radio. Then of course you get revivals, when some music is seen as "retro" and is now cool. That 20/30s style was popular again for a while, mostly due to "Boardwalk Empire" and particularly in Britain, on the back of their (failed) Eurovision entry. Sometimes it comes back around, such as with prog in the 80s, to sort of fade out again, and sometimes it metamorphoses into something almost completely different, like "New" Country. Then you have genres crossing over, so that the best (or worst) of both worlds is achieved. One thing is certain though: as you say, in another however many years, the current trend which is seen as cool will be villified by the kids as they groove to their new favourite genre, whatever it may be. The world turns, and music changes, but one thing remains the same: our belief that the music our parents listened to was crap, and our, in general, refusal to give it a fair trial and just dismiss it out of hand. __________________ Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018

08-21-2015, 10:17 AM	#9 (permalink)
Trollheart Born to be mild Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 404 Not Found Posts: 26,996	I agree and I think a lot of it has to do with the eternal "That's too loud/That's not loud enough" argument that goes on between the generations. As each new generation comes up, their music is, it seems, more aggressive and louder than that of their parents. Jazz gave way to rock, rock to metal and punk, metal and punk to hip-hop to a degree, and so on. Now, those of us that are considered (ahem) older think much of today's music is too loud, formless and ideally at this time soulless, while those who are younger think that what we listen to is boring, old and irrelevant. And so, I expect, it will always be. There's also the, as you put it, tribal aspect, where it's considered "uncool" to listen to "old" music, and as everyone wants to be accepted, you get the herd mentality often in music appreciation, where I swear a large percentage of those who listen to today's music (sorry) do so more because it's the thing to do, the thing that makes you acceptable, rather than something they actively enjoy. I was interested to see, when Ed Sheeran played here recently, of the four or so people stopped and interviewed and asked why they liked him, almost every response was "Uh, it's just great. The lyrics. The .... I just really like his music." Showing us that really (although in fairness these people were put on the spot, but still, if someone stopped me in the street and asked me why I liked my favourite band, I could talk their ear off with reasons) nobody KNOWS why they like Ed Sheeran, ergo, nobody really probably does actually like him, it's just a case of going with the crowd. __________________ Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018

08-05-2015, 06:42 AM	#10 (permalink)
Frownland SOPHIE FOREVER Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: East of the Southern North American West Posts: 35,541	So are we just talking about how a genre does commercially or as a whole? Because if it's the latter, I'd say that jazz world is still quite massive and thriving despite not being chart toppers. __________________ Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth. d e a f b o x

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