The rise and fall of musical genres

The Batlord · 08-10-2015, 07:01 AM

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Originally Posted by CoNtrivedNiHilism

Heard all of those songs already and a handful of others, she's one Pop artist I think is pretty talented and don't turn my nose up to if I hear a song of hers, however when you talk about her new stuff...wtf happened?

The video from that last song was from her American Life album, which had the unfortunate luck to be released just before 9/11, so there was a backlash that's pretty much kept her muzzled by her record company ever since, making her just a voice played over dance beats. The album right after that, Confessions on the Dance Floor was pretty awesome, but it didn't have a whole lot of personality from Madonna.

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Spoiler for iuhivudf:

First of all, pop isn't necessarily made better by having something to say, since it's there to be catchy, and not necessarily as an extension of the artist's inner voice. Lady GaGa's first album was just a bunch of songs about her being a vapid party girl, built entirely around club dance beats, but it's still superior to her other two albums. Partially because she doesn't really have anything to say, and is just buying into her own hype at the expense of the simple, dance pop that made her famous.

And two, I'm very pick-and-choose about my modern pop -- not because it's contrived or anything, but a lot of it just isn't as catchy as pop should be -- but...

Don't know why this is listed as a Jessie J song, as it's from Arianne Grande's album.

Great singles, but her albums aren't entirely consistent.

Note: These are all British artists, so I'm thinking that American pop is currently inferior to the sounds from across the pond.

CoNtrivedNiHilism · 08-10-2015, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord

First of all, pop isn't necessarily made better by having something to say, since it's there to be catchy, and not necessarily as an extension of the artist's inner voice. Lady GaGa's first album was just a bunch of songs about her being a vapid party girl, built entirely around club dance beats, but it's still superior to her other two albums. Partially because she doesn't really have anything to say, and is just buying into her own hype at the expense of the simple, dance pop that made her famous.

And two, I'm very pick-and-choose about my modern pop -- not because it's contrived or anything, but a lot of it just isn't as catchy as pop should be -- but...

Don't know why this is listed as a Jessie J song, as it's from Arianne Grande's album.

Great singles, but her albums aren't entirely consistent.

Note: These are all British artists, so I'm thinking that American pop is currently inferior to the sounds from across the pond.

Well, Chvrches is something I'm really digging, sort of a retro pop outfit. Nonetheless I'm not finding myself irritated by tried and tired themes or predictability.

Batty. I understand what Pop is meant to look, sound, be portrayed as. I know the subject matter isn't meant to really be something that has a point behind it, lyrically I find that the words are jumbled together in not a random order, but not particularly in any fashion either, they're just there and I'd even call the lyrics a filler to be honest, as the music is the forefront or how it sounds is.

But just because Pop doesn't exist to have something to say, I don't get why a Pop artists wouldn't want to be known for the subject matter of their music being something meaningful, record sales and being relevant just mean more? It boggles my mind, because it's almost something I feel betrays the point of making music to begin with, like as an outlet for your inner voice and to express yourself with, but to be content with what they doing being mundane or vapid, it just goes to show me that maybe they take music for granted. Music is important for me to the point that I feel I'd not even want to be here if it never existed, so when an artists just pumps out music for the f*ck of it, they just want the fame and money, notoriety, it gets my blood boiling because it shows no appreciation or respect for music.

You're not the only one that is picky with music. Contrary to what you think by consequence of the music I have shared thus far here (you've liked a fair amount of it, but there's a lot you detested too) the music I gravitate toward is much more grounded around really actually being good. Beartooth is not an example of the music I actually listen to every day. Take me at my word on that.

In regard to those videos you posted...

The first one, by Neon Hitch, was horrid, sorry. She sang like she was wanting to sound like Britney Spears, or her voice just sounds like that. Either way I didn't like it.

The second one, that Jessie J collaboration, I've heard it over and over at work. It isn't a song I'd say that I hate, but I just don't think it's that good either.

Natalia Kills was probably the best of what you posted. I can't say she is anything special, and frankly none of what you posted sounded much different than Pop in the USA. Very similar or what you posted was a poor representation of Pop from over seas.

The Batlord · 08-10-2015, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoNtrivedNiHilism

Batty. I understand what Pop is meant to look, sound, be portrayed as. I know the subject matter isn't meant to really be something that has a point behind it, lyrically I find that the words are jumbled together in not a random order, but not particularly in any fashion either, they're just there and I'd even call the lyrics a filler to be honest, as the music is the forefront or how it sounds is.

Well, like you and I have already said, you can't judge a genre by the standards you would another genre. I look to metal for great riffs and/or aggression, but I would look for that with an artist like Johnny Cash or Townes Van Zandt.

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You're not the only one that is picky with music. Contrary to what you think by consequence of the music I have shared thus far here (you've liked a fair amount of it, but there's a lot you detested too) the music I gravitate toward is much more grounded around really actually being good. Beartooth is not an example of the music I actually listen to every day. Take me at my word on that.

You may very well already be aware of them, but for melodic metalcore that I actually respect, Unearth is my goto band.

I think you should delve into some pre-00s metalcore, as it's vastly superior to the later bands. A lot different sounding, since it was a movement coming from hardcore and post-hardcore bands rather than metal ones.

Deadguy - Doom Patrol

These are more like proto-metalcore/hardcore bands.

Ringworm - The Sickness

Integrity - Heaven's Final War

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Spoiler for ibfiwebi:

I don't mean they're better creatively, just that I find them to be catchier pop songs than anything I'm hearing from American pop artists.

If you want a more creative pop artists, then I'd suggest M.I.A.. She's got a sound somewhere in-between pop, rap, club music, and some kind of bastard combo of tribal beats. Can't really compare her to anything else going on TBH.

CoNtrivedNiHilism · 08-10-2015, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord

Well, like you and I have already said, you can't judge a genre by the standards you would another genre. I look to metal for great riffs and/or aggression, but I would look for that with an artist like Johnny Cash or Townes Van Zandt.

You may very well already be aware of them, but for melodic metalcore that I actually respect, Unearth is my goto band.

I think you should delve into some pre-00s metalcore, as it's vastly superior to the later bands. A lot different sounding, since it was a movement coming from hardcore and post-hardcore bands rather than metal ones.

Deadguy - Doom Patrol

These are more like proto-metalcore/hardcore bands.

Ringworm - The Sickness

Integrity - Heaven's Final War

I don't mean they're better creatively, just that I find them to be catchier pop songs than anything I'm hearing from American pop artists.

If you want a more creative pop artists, then I'd suggest M.I.A.. She's got a sound somewhere in-between pop, rap, club music, and some kind of bastard combo of tribal beats. Can't really compare her to anything else going on TBH.

There's been times that I have judged another genre based on the standards of another I view as superior, but yeah I've said that it shouldn't be done. Frustration toward artists seeming to focus less on creativity or standing out drives my impulse to judge that way.

What I've listened to of pre 00's Metalcore, and I'll be honest that there hasn't been a lot of it and it came out at a time that I wouldn't gravitate all that much toward your more aggressive vocals as well, at one point of my musical evolution, I looked down on bands that had vocalists that screamed or growled throughout an album, because melody is such an important thing for me in the music that I like. Obviously now it isn't so much the case, the whole not liking or favoring vocals like that, because there's Trivium, Lamb of God, August Burns Red, Unearth, Protest The Hero, Paradise Lost, Whitechapel, I listen to all of those bands now and 15 or more years ago I wouldn't have given them the time of day, but I was a lot more ignorant or unaware of how good the music could actually be too.

I listen to Unearth, as mentioned already. I had heard of Poison The Well, heard a song or four from Converge, but I cannot say that I have heard anything from those other bands you posted, but I liked pretty much each of those songs too, especially found myself drawn to Converge, I really liked that imperfect, raw and aggressive sound in that one song posted.

Oh, and M.I.A....

I thought the music was pretty strange, didn't hate it though. I might look more in to her stuff to find if I'd like more of it, certainly isn't typical.

Trollheart · 08-10-2015, 11:22 AM

I think a possibility with pop music too is that in general it's bought by a much younger crowd, and they simply don't want to know about or don't care about social issues in their music. If it's not Facebook or Twitter or something that matters to them, in general, they don't seem to want it in their music. I'm sure if politically-charged themes and world consciousness was what the masses wanted, the artistes would be told/encouraged to go in that direction, but kids just want music to dance to, they don't want really to have to think about it, and what the public wants, the public gets. Whatever sells, ya know?

William_the_Bloody · 08-12-2015, 12:43 AM

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Originally Posted by DriveYourCarDownToTheSea

Classical music probably peaked in popularity in the late 1800's-early 1900's, overthrown by jazz in the 20's. In this case it was an extremely long ascent with an extremely long descent, spanning centuries. However, if you divide it into its sub-genres (Renaissance, Baroque, High Classical, Romantic, Modern) there are clear ascents, peaks and descents.

I'd say jazz's peak was probably in the early 50's, especially if you consider swing to be a kind of jazz.

Something not mentioned is that folk music probably peaked in popularity in the early-mid 60's. Like a lot of other genres it was subsumed by another genre (in this case rock, which created the sub-genre "folk-rock"), which more often than not is the beginning of the end of a genre's peak popularity. One could also argue that rap being integrated into other genres in the past 20 years or so is a sign that rap has peaked as well.

I think what we might call "generic pop" is going to be around for a very long time, in part because it's such a broad and flexible genre, and thus, because it has such a broad appeal. I think it's lifeline might end up being like Classical music, with a lifespan measured in centuries.

Thank you for your contribution, I think your right on the money with pop music. Although the subgenres in pop change a lot faster, every decade or two (disco, new wave, R&B ect) instead of century, largely due to advancements in media and technology. I don't think pop music will fade away until we evolve into some higher form of species. So there is probably a century or two more to go before we hit peak pop. Rock is probably toast though.

So...

Classical
Jazz
Country
Rock
Metal
Punk
Rap/hip hop
Parts of EDM
Disco (Part of pop)
and waiting on Prog rock

Here is another.

Industrial music:

Starts in the UK in the late 70's but doesn't really begin its ascent until the mid 80's with the popularity of band like Ministry & Skinny Puppy, we hit peak industrial sometime in the early 90's, perhaps 1994, the big commercial spike of NIN, FLA ect, where after that it begins a quick decent back down into a small underground niche.

**Frownland** · 08-12-2015, 12:53 AM

Pretentious Throbbing Gristleheads like myself don't even consider bands like NIN to be industrial music, so maybe you're right on that one if we're going with what's ripping the charts a new one.

However, on folk music, I think that it's too vague of a term to really have a beginning or end. Americana folk music is going to be vastly different from Vietnamese folk music. In a way, you could say that most artists who are clearly passionate about their music make folk music since they are a product of their time whether they like it or not.

Even if you don't take such a liberal definition with folk music, a lot of the alternative music (lol at the genre name btw) have very prominent folk roots from what I've heard (even if the ringleaders suck some serious ass).

grindy · 08-12-2015, 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland

Pretentious Throbbing Gristleheads like myself don't even consider bands like NIN to be industrial music, so maybe you're right on that one if we're going with what's ripping the charts a new one.

However, on folk music, I think that it's too vague of a term to really have a beginning or end. Americans folk music is going to be vastly different from Vietnamese folk music. In a way, you could say that most artists who are clearly passionate about their music make folk music since they are a product of their time whether they like it or not.

Even if you don't take such a liberal definition with folk music, a lot of the alternative music (lol at the genre name btw) have very prominent folk roots from what I've heard (even if the ringleaders suck some serious ass).

Came here to say this.
NIN isn't even the worst offender.
When I say Industrial and people think 'Rammstein', that's what really hurts.

**Frownland** · 08-12-2015, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grindy

Came here to say this.
NIN isn't even the worst offender.
When I say Industrial and people think 'Rammstein', that's what really hurts.

Jesus Christ. What did you have to gain by reminding me of that monstrosity? You must hate me.

Mondo Bungle · 08-12-2015, 01:07 AM

Nin is still some pretty industrial rock i think

08-10-2015, 11:22 AM	#65 (permalink)
Trollheart Born to be mild Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 404 Not Found Posts: 26,994	I think a possibility with pop music too is that in general it's bought by a much younger crowd, and they simply don't want to know about or don't care about social issues in their music. If it's not Facebook or Twitter or something that matters to them, in general, they don't seem to want it in their music. I'm sure if politically-charged themes and world consciousness was what the masses wanted, the artistes would be told/encouraged to go in that direction, but kids just want music to dance to, they don't want really to have to think about it, and what the public wants, the public gets. Whatever sells, ya know? __________________ Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018

08-12-2015, 12:53 AM	#67 (permalink)
Frownland SOPHIE FOREVER Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: East of the Southern North American West Posts: 35,541	Pretentious Throbbing Gristleheads like myself don't even consider bands like NIN to be industrial music, so maybe you're right on that one if we're going with what's ripping the charts a new one. However, on folk music, I think that it's too vague of a term to really have a beginning or end. Americana folk music is going to be vastly different from Vietnamese folk music. In a way, you could say that most artists who are clearly passionate about their music make folk music since they are a product of their time whether they like it or not. Even if you don't take such a liberal definition with folk music, a lot of the alternative music (lol at the genre name btw) have very prominent folk roots from what I've heard (even if the ringleaders suck some serious ass). __________________ Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth. d e a f b o x Last edited by Frownland; 08-12-2015 at 01:05 AM.