The rise and fall of musical genres

Wolfi65 · 08-20-2015, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

but another factor is this sort of desire for the younger generation to always despise their parents' music. Many kids would put down say jazz or big band in the 50/60s because it was "old people's music", although in all likelihood they never even listened to it properly. Same thing with punk vs prog and pop vs rock. There's an almost unconscious need to put down music seen as older, to be seen as "hip" or "with it" or "cool" or whatever the prevalent phrase is at the time, by latching on to the latest trends and being with the in-crowd.

So older music generally gets short shrift from the younger generation, and sadly, mostly these are the ones who buy the records that make up the charts, and therefore determine what is deemed popular and what we will hear on the basic radio.

Then of course you get revivals, when some music is seen as "retro" and is now cool. That 20/30s style was popular again for a while, mostly due to "Boardwalk Empire" and particularly in Britain, on the back of their (failed) Eurovision entry. Sometimes it comes back around, such as with prog in the 80s, to sort of fade out again, and sometimes it metamorphoses into something almost completely different, like "New" Country. Then you have genres crossing over, so that the best (or worst) of both worlds is achieved.

One thing is certain though: as you say, in another however many years, the current trend which is seen as cool will be villified by the kids as they groove to their new favourite genre, whatever it may be. The world turns, and music changes, but one thing remains the same: our belief that the music our parents listened to was crap, and our, in general, refusal to give it a fair trial and just dismiss it out of hand.

Works the other way, too.
A lot of older people will dismiss whatever music younger generations listen to, often without even giving it any sort of shot at all.
Seems to me many people of all generations get 'stuck' in the musical style of their first 20-some years or so and cannot ever leave this bubble.

It's interesting that someone mentioned Country, I'm having a very similar discussion with some of the folks at one of my local night spots. They are technically a 'Country' bar, but did, in their first 2 very successful years, also schedule bands that fell more into the 'alternative Country' or even 'Rock' genres, always to a packed house of mostly college- or grad student types.
They don't do that any more, Waylon, Willie, Merle & George pretty much rule the waves, which brings the crusty old cowboy guys back (who believe John Travolta is the greatest cowboy who ever rode a mechanical bull and Taylor Swift sux), but keeps the college crowd out. Result: Far fewer people, far lamer bands.
I'm trying to tell them to at least play some more contemporary Country, but maybe even that isn't good enough, I think Country may be over as a widely popular genre.

CoNtrivedNiHilism · 08-21-2015, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolfi65

I think Country may be over as a widely popular genre.

Not true.

The genre itself is still pretty popular.

William_the_Bloody · 08-21-2015, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolfi65

Works the other way, too.
A lot of older people will dismiss whatever music younger generations listen to, often without even giving it any sort of shot at all.
Seems to me many people of all generations get 'stuck' in the musical style of their first 20-some years or so and cannot ever leave this bubble.
But

I think you hit the nail on the head here. I use to think that I would never hit that stage and that I would always be open minded, but there comes a time when it is almost undignified to be blarring the latest indie music from your car stereo.

(If I went to a metalcore show, I'm pretty sure I would last 2 minutes before I could't handle being around drunken 21 year old white males trying to prove their tribal manhood)

That and when your younger & in the music scene you have dreams about being the next Massive Attack, ect. When your older you just have to accept the reality of survival.

It's not that I don't like new music, it's just that I don't care, and as result, I have less tolerance for something that doesn't sound recognizably appealing.

Trollheart · 08-21-2015, 11:17 AM

I agree and I think a lot of it has to do with the eternal "That's too loud/That's not loud enough" argument that goes on between the generations. As each new generation comes up, their music is, it seems, more aggressive and louder than that of their parents. Jazz gave way to rock, rock to metal and punk, metal and punk to hip-hop to a degree, and so on. Now, those of us that are considered (ahem) older think much of today's music is too loud, formless and ideally at this time soulless, while those who are younger think that what we listen to is boring, old and irrelevant. And so, I expect, it will always be.

There's also the, as you put it, tribal aspect, where it's considered "uncool" to listen to "old" music, and as everyone wants to be accepted, you get the herd mentality often in music appreciation, where I swear a large percentage of those who listen to today's music (sorry) do so more because it's the thing to do, the thing that makes you acceptable, rather than something they actively enjoy.

I was interested to see, when Ed Sheeran played here recently, of the four or so people stopped and interviewed and asked why they liked him, almost every response was "Uh, it's just great. The lyrics. The .... I just really like his music." Showing us that really (although in fairness these people were put on the spot, but still, if someone stopped me in the street and asked me why I liked my favourite band, I could talk their ear off with reasons) nobody KNOWS why they like Ed Sheeran, ergo, nobody really probably does actually like him, it's just a case of going with the crowd.

CoNtrivedNiHilism · 08-21-2015, 11:37 AM

I hope I don't get to that point where I stop seeking out new music from new bands or artists. Honestly I cannot fathom that version of myself ever coming to be. William seemed to think the same thing, but he's reached that point. I do recall at a Machine Head concert I went to a few months back, I found myself annoyed with those loud, obnoxious people that wanted to be in your face ALL THE DAMN TIME, no sense of respect at all, not to mention they boozed up, some of which were easily 30 or older, me being 28 at the time.

In some ways I might already be morphing in to the type of person William and Wolf described, I could stand to not want to tolerate morons at concerts at the very least, but not giving up seeking out new music to listen to, even if the generation younger than my own is the audience.

Ninetales · 08-21-2015, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

There's also the, as you put it, tribal aspect, where it's considered "uncool" to listen to "old" music, and as everyone wants to be accepted, you get the herd mentality often in music appreciation, where I swear a large percentage of those who listen to today's music (sorry) do so more because it's the thing to do, the thing that makes you acceptable, rather than something they actively enjoy.

I was interested to see, when Ed Sheeran played here recently, of the four or so people stopped and interviewed and asked why they liked him, almost every response was "Uh, it's just great. The lyrics. The .... I just really like his music." Showing us that really (although in fairness these people were put on the spot, but still, if someone stopped me in the street and asked me why I liked my favourite band, I could talk their ear off with reasons) nobody KNOWS why they like Ed Sheeran, ergo, nobody really probably does actually like him, it's just a case of going with the crowd.

I see this more the other way, though. Like if you ask a handful of "young generationers" who the best band ever is, a lot of them will probably say the Beatles even if they couldnt name an album or a song or a band member.

Trollheart · 08-21-2015, 12:18 PM

Yeah, they probably think they're being "edgy". As far as I'm concerned, I like what I like, be it popular or not, and have always been that way. I have never NOT listened to an artiste because someone told me they weren't cool, though young Trollheart did cast aspersions on the likes of ABBA, Madness, Barry Manilow etc. When I found I liked those bands though (Madness excepted) I just listened to them; I didn't think Oh I can't listen to this! What would my friends say?

Also, I had no friends...

CoNtrivedNiHilism · 08-21-2015, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

Yeah, they probably think they're being "edgy". As far as I'm concerned, I like what I like, be it popular or not, and have always been that way. I have never NOT listened to an artiste because someone told me they weren't cool, though young Trollheart did cast aspersions on the likes of ABBA, Madness, Barry Manilow etc. When I found I liked those bands though (Madness excepted) I just listened to them; I didn't think Oh I can't listen to this! What would my friends say?

Also, I had no friends...

This is still how I am to this day haha. I love Deftones, I listen to 30 Seconds To Mars, love BUSH, listen to Seether time to time, like a few Nickelback songs (these songs still suck, just a little catchy), I spin The Killers now and again, just bands that most people here would sh*t on, and it's because I listen to what grabs my attention, popular or cool, good or not, it doesn't matter.

...curious thing is how some here STILL don't get that about me, and they think picking on me for it will hit a nerve. Most recently was Batty going after me for posting up a Beartooth song, of course he was just having fun (he did hate them though), I still laughed and cranked up Beartooth's album, unapologetic.

**Frownland** · 08-21-2015, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

I agree and I think a lot of it has to do with the eternal "That's too loud/That's not loud enough" argument that goes on between the generations. As each new generation comes up, their music is, it seems, more aggressive and louder than that of their parents. Jazz gave way to rock, rock to metal and punk, metal and punk to hip-hop to a degree, and so on. Now, those of us that are considered (ahem) older think much of today's music is too loud, formless and ideally at this time soulless, while those who are younger think that what we listen to is boring, old and irrelevant. And so, I expect, it will always be.

Old music is so formless and loud. Not like that new Ed Sheeran nonsense.

Quote:

There's also the, as you put it, tribal aspect, where it's considered "uncool" to listen to "old" music, and as everyone wants to be accepted, you get the herd mentality often in music appreciation, where I swear a large percentage of those who listen to today's music (sorry) do so more because it's the thing to do, the thing that makes you acceptable, rather than something they actively enjoy.

I was interested to see, when Ed Sheeran played here recently, of the four or so people stopped and interviewed and asked why they liked him, almost every response was "Uh, it's just great. The lyrics. The .... I just really like his music." Showing us that really (although in fairness these people were put on the spot, but still, if someone stopped me in the street and asked me why I liked my favourite band, I could talk their ear off with reasons) nobody KNOWS why they like Ed Sheeran, ergo, nobody really probably does actually like him, it's just a case of going with the crowd.

I think that's always been the mindset of many a casual music fan. They're not that concerned about being picky and just go with whatever everyone else liked. I mean, Frank Sinatra's music isn't particularly great (imo, especially when compared to his contemporaries in the jazz field), but a lot of his popularity came from his image. You see pretty much the same type of thing today.

William_the_Bloody · 08-21-2015, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

I agree and I think a lot of it has to do with the eternal "That's too loud/That's not loud enough" argument that goes on between the generations. As each new generation comes up, their music is, it seems, more aggressive and louder than that of their parents. Jazz gave way to rock, rock to metal and punk, metal and punk to hip-hop to a degree, and so on. Now, those of us that are considered (ahem) older think much of today's music is too loud, formless and ideally at this time soulless, while those who are younger think that what we listen to is boring, old and irrelevant. And so, I expect, it will always be.

There's also the, as you put it, tribal aspect, where it's considered "uncool" to listen to "old" music, and as everyone wants to be accepted, you get the herd mentality often in music appreciation, where I swear a large percentage of those who listen to today's music (sorry) do so more because it's the thing to do, the thing that makes you acceptable, rather than something they actively enjoy.

Hmmm, I think if you were in high school during that 30 year period of music from the 70's to 90's, than attitude and heaviness were definitely the generation gap back than, but I think things have changed...

I think the generation gap today is production slickness, as a lot of modern pop music sounds so overproduced it makes me feel nauseous, like if I just ate too much cherry cheese cake, and the underground, which usually pits itself against the mainstream reflects this.

Here's a good example of a band Frownland posted a while back.

I've run across a few bands like this now, and if I grew up in a world where soulless pop & R&B dominated the mainstream, I'd try to find a way to butcher it to.

Now I can digest anything that is heavy (grindcore ect), but this is harder because its more abstract, like Skinny Puppy or Frank Zappa, and at my age I'm not about to replay it ten times in a row until I learn to appreciate it lol. So generation gap.

I think Ninetales also brings up a good point. The amount of young kids that tell me that the music back in the 70's (Pink Floyd, Beatles, Sabbath) is way better than the music today astonishes me.

That being said, I take your point on the tribalism, I can't think of any person over 30 that would want to hang out with pea brain 21 year olds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoNtrivedNiHilism

I hope I don't get to that point where I stop seeking out new music from new bands or artists. Honestly I cannot fathom that version of myself ever coming to be. William seemed to think the same thing, but he's reached that point. I do recall at a Machine Head concert I went to a few months back, I found myself annoyed with those loud, obnoxious people that wanted to be in your face ALL THE DAMN TIME, no sense of respect at all, not to mention they boozed up, some of which were easily 30 or older, me being 28 at the time.

In some ways I might already be morphing in to the type of person William and Wolf described, I could stand to not want to tolerate morons at concerts at the very least, but not giving up seeking out new music to listen to, even if the generation younger than my own is the audience.

It happens, give it 10 more years and you will be there

08-21-2015, 11:17 AM	#134 (permalink)
Trollheart Born to be mild Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 404 Not Found Posts: 26,992	I agree and I think a lot of it has to do with the eternal "That's too loud/That's not loud enough" argument that goes on between the generations. As each new generation comes up, their music is, it seems, more aggressive and louder than that of their parents. Jazz gave way to rock, rock to metal and punk, metal and punk to hip-hop to a degree, and so on. Now, those of us that are considered (ahem) older think much of today's music is too loud, formless and ideally at this time soulless, while those who are younger think that what we listen to is boring, old and irrelevant. And so, I expect, it will always be. There's also the, as you put it, tribal aspect, where it's considered "uncool" to listen to "old" music, and as everyone wants to be accepted, you get the herd mentality often in music appreciation, where I swear a large percentage of those who listen to today's music (sorry) do so more because it's the thing to do, the thing that makes you acceptable, rather than something they actively enjoy. I was interested to see, when Ed Sheeran played here recently, of the four or so people stopped and interviewed and asked why they liked him, almost every response was "Uh, it's just great. The lyrics. The .... I just really like his music." Showing us that really (although in fairness these people were put on the spot, but still, if someone stopped me in the street and asked me why I liked my favourite band, I could talk their ear off with reasons) nobody KNOWS why they like Ed Sheeran, ergo, nobody really probably does actually like him, it's just a case of going with the crowd. __________________ Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018

08-21-2015, 11:37 AM	#135 (permalink)
CoNtrivedNiHilism Because I Am, I Can! Join Date: Aug 2014 Posts: 1,128	I hope I don't get to that point where I stop seeking out new music from new bands or artists. Honestly I cannot fathom that version of myself ever coming to be. William seemed to think the same thing, but he's reached that point. I do recall at a Machine Head concert I went to a few months back, I found myself annoyed with those loud, obnoxious people that wanted to be in your face ALL THE DAMN TIME, no sense of respect at all, not to mention they boozed up, some of which were easily 30 or older, me being 28 at the time. In some ways I might already be morphing in to the type of person William and Wolf described, I could stand to not want to tolerate morons at concerts at the very least, but not giving up seeking out new music to listen to, even if the generation younger than my own is the audience. __________________

08-21-2015, 12:18 PM	#137 (permalink)
Trollheart Born to be mild Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 404 Not Found Posts: 26,992	Yeah, they probably think they're being "edgy". As far as I'm concerned, I like what I like, be it popular or not, and have always been that way. I have never NOT listened to an artiste because someone told me they weren't cool, though young Trollheart did cast aspersions on the likes of ABBA, Madness, Barry Manilow etc. When I found I liked those bands though (Madness excepted) I just listened to them; I didn't think Oh I can't listen to this! What would my friends say? Also, I had no friends... __________________ Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018