What is music, what is not?

Trollheart · 10-13-2014, 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninetales

Ok so there a couple different things being talked about here. So here's where im at on them. Machine, my first post wasn't really directed at you, more on Trollheart as he was trying to hide behind this barrier of "it's my opinion dude". Opinions can absolutely be shitty and his is. In my opinion.

Ninetales, I must say your post (the part quoted) pissed me off. Who are you to say my opinion is shitty? In fact, you just made a circular logical argument . You see my opinion as shitty,in your opinion. Well I can say I see yours as shitty. So we're back around in a circle.

Please don't diss me like this just because my view differs from yours. Who are you to say whose interpretation is correct? And I was and am not "hiding behind" it's my opinion. That's how I feel. I can't say what music definitively is, other than give a wiki definition which I may not agree with. The main thrust of the question, I believe, as I mentioned, is more what do you believe music is? I've given my opinion of what I think it is, please respect it and do not be an arrogant arsehole. It does not become you and I'm surprised because this is not who I have seen you as.

But you have wounded me, sir.

**Frownland** · 10-13-2014, 09:49 AM

No offense Trollheart, but he's kind of right. Your view on the subject is very close minded and you're boxing out music that you don't like because of that mindset. You place somewhat arbitrary limitations on what music can be without lending consideration to the fact that music can change. So whenever an artist makes music without the big three in mind or as is more often the case you fail to recognize those elements, you write them off as not music. You don't have to take it as far as I do but still, you should rename the not music category as 'music I don't like'.

As big fans of not music, me and ninetales are just as valid in our opinion as you are.

IMO your opinion is just as ignorant as this (satiric) opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninetales

imo it's not music unless it's played with a guitar and that's MY OPINION and you cant change it because its mine and if you disagree well its just my opinion. that's what music is to me.

Plankton · 10-13-2014, 10:10 AM

I know it's kind of like cheating, but the OP had me thinking, and I usually go to the wiki to at least get some sort of reference when I can't quite put my finger on my thoughts, and when I found this, it all clicked for me. Mostly the bolded parts.

Quote:

In his 1983 book, Music as Heard, which sets out from the phenomenological position of Husserl, Merleau-Ponty, and Ricœur, Thomas Clifton defines music as "an ordered arrangement of sounds and silences whose meaning is presentative rather than denotative. . . . This definition distinguishes music, as an end in itself, from compositional technique, and from sounds as purely physical objects." More precisely, "music is the actualization of the possibility of any sound whatever to present to some human being a meaning which he experiences with his body—that is to say, with his mind, his feelings, his senses, his will, and his metabolism" (Clifton 1983, 1). It is therefore "a certain reciprocal relation established between a person, his behavior, and a sounding object" (Clifton 1983, 10).

Clifton accordingly differentiates music from nonmusic on the basis of the human behavior involved, rather than on either the nature of compositional technique or of sounds as purely physical objects. Consequently, the distinction becomes a question of what is meant by musical behavior: "a musically behaving person is one whose very being is absorbed in the significance of the sounds being experienced." However, "It is not altogether accurate to say that this person is listening to the sounds. First, the person is doing more than listening: he is perceiving, interpreting, judging, and feeling. Second, the preposition 'to' puts too much stress on the sounds as such. Thus, the musically behaving person experiences musical significance by means of, or through, the sounds" (Clifton 1983, 2).

In this framework, Clifton finds that there are two things that separate music from nonmusic: (1) musical meaning is presentative, and (2) music and nonmusic are distinguished in the idea of personal involvement. "It is the notion of personal involvement which lends significance to the word ordered in this definition of music" (Clifton 1983, 3–4). This is not to be understood, however, as a sanctification of extreme relativism, since "it is precisely the 'subjective' aspect of experience which lured many writers earlier in this century down the path of sheer opinion-mongering. Later on this trend was reversed by a renewed interest in 'objective,' scientific, or otherwise nonintrospective musical analysis. But we have good reason to believe that a musical experience is not a purely private thing, like seeing pink elephants, and that reporting about such an experience need not be subjective in the sense of it being a mere matter of opinion" (Clifton 1983, 8–9).

Clifton's task, then, is to describe musical experience and the objects of this experience which, together, are called "phenomena," and the activity of describing phenomena is called "phenomenology" (Clifton 1983, 9). It is important to stress that this definition of music says nothing about aesthetic standards.

Music is not a fact or a thing in the world, but a meaning constituted by human beings. . . . To talk about such experience in a meaningful way demands several things. First, we have to be willing to let the composition speak to us, to let it reveal its own order and significance. . . . Second, we have to be willing to question our assumptions about the nature and role of musical materials. . . . Last, and perhaps most important, we have to be ready to admit that describing a meaningful experience is itself meaningful. (Clifton 1983, 5–6)

For me, even a fart can be a musical experience.

Trollheart · 10-13-2014, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland

No offense Trollheart, but he's kind of right. Your view on the subject is very close minded and you're boxing out music that you don't like because of that mindset. You place somewhat arbitrary limitations on what music can be without lending consideration to the fact that music can change. So whenever an artist makes music without the big three in mind or as is more often the case you fail to recognize those elements, you write them off as not music. You don't have to take it as far as I do but still, you should rename the not music category as 'music I don't like'.

As big fans of not music, me and ninetales are just as valid in our opinion as you are.

IMO your opinion is just as ignorant as this (satiric) opinion.

No, actually. It's just as ignorant of you to tell me that my opinion is close-minded, when you know that I'm not like that. Anyway the probelm I have with Ninetales is not that he does not agree with me --- he's entitled to that. It's his contention that my opinion does not count. It's the nasty slur he's directing at me. I know he probably doesn't mean to be nasty, but he is. If I don't think someone running ten photocopiers at once onstage is music, then I'm close-minded, am I? Would you prefer I pretended to like things I don't like, or just run along with the crowd? At least I'm being honest.

And I'll state one more time before I leave this: my opinion is MINE. It is NOT for ANYONE to call it shitty; you can disagree with me, say I think you're wrong etc but to use that sort of childish language is beneath anyone, and I'm annoyed at it. Nobody has a right to tell me my opinion is shitty. My opinion is mine; just because it doesn't chime with yours, his, or anyone else's does not make it wrong.

Now leave me alone: I have metal reviews to write...

Trollheart · 10-13-2014, 10:52 AM

My last point on that: disagree with me all you want, say I'm wrong but respect my opinion as I would yours. It's only fair. And don't hurl words like shitty my way, it's just rude and uncalled for. I don't think that's asking too much.

**Janszoon** · 10-13-2014, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

No, actually. It's just as ignorant of you to tell me that my opinion is close-minded, when you know that I'm not like that. Anyway the probelm I have with Ninetales is not that he does not agree with me --- he's entitled to that. It's his contention that my opinion does not count. It's the nasty slur he's directing at me. I know he probably doesn't mean to be nasty, but he is. If I don't think someone running ten photocopiers at once onstage is music, then I'm close-minded, am I? Would you prefer I pretended to like things I don't like, or just run along with the crowd? At least I'm being honest.

I don't think anyone's asking you to pretend to like things you don't like, they're just asking that you acknowledge that it's music.

**Frownland** · 10-13-2014, 11:01 AM

^this. I tried to encapsulate that by suggesting you refer to it as music you don't like/get/agree with instead of not calling it music.

Ninetales · 10-13-2014, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

Ninetales, I must say your post (the part quoted) pissed me off. Who are you to say my opinion is shitty? In fact, you just made a circular logical argument . You see my opinion as shitty,in your opinion. Well I can say I see yours as shitty. So we're back around in a circle.

Please don't diss me like this just because my view differs from yours. Who are you to say whose interpretation is correct? And I was and am not "hiding behind" it's my opinion. That's how I feel. I can't say what music definitively is, other than give a wiki definition which I may not agree with. The main thrust of the question, I believe, as I mentioned, is more what do you believe music is? I've given my opinion of what I think it is, please respect it and do not be an arrogant arsehole. It does not become you and I'm surprised because this is not who I have seen you as.

But you have wounded me, sir.

I was not dissing you. I said your opinion was a bad one and then said why I believe so. If I said turtlenecks aren't pieces of clothing, because well I don't wear turtlenecks, would you respect my opinion? You shouldn't. We can disagree on how much we like turtlenecks all we want, but they are clothes, regardless of what I say/think they are. The definition of music may have room for interpretation, but how do you not see that you saying "grindcore isn't music" is insulting to fans of it? Saying "it's my opinion" does not mean we cant criticize it.

grindy · 10-13-2014, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninetales

I was not dissing you. I said your opinion was a bad one and then said why I believe so. If I said turtlenecks aren't pieces of clothing, because well I don't wear turtlenecks, would you respect my opinion? You shouldn't. We can disagree on how much we like turtlenecks all we want, but they are clothes, regardless of what I say/think they are. The definition of music may have room for interpretation, but how do you not see that you saying "grindcore isn't music" is insulting to fans of it? Saying "it's my opinion" does not mean we cant criticize it.

I'm not sure it's insulting.
I wouldn't be insulted.
To quote Cage: „You don't have to call it music, if the term shocks you."

Plankton · 10-13-2014, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninetales

I was not dissing you. I said your opinion was a bad one and then said why I believe so. If I said turtlenecks aren't pieces of clothing, because well I don't wear turtlenecks, would you respect my opinion? You shouldn't. We can disagree on how much we like turtlenecks all we want, but they are clothes, regardless of what I say/think they are. The definition of music may have room for interpretation, but how do you not see that you saying "grindcore isn't music" is insulting to fans of it? Saying "it's my opinion" does not mean we cant criticize it.

Define "dissing". Calling someones opinion '****ty' would be the equivalent of being dissed around where I come from, and saying you're not 'dissing' someone when you clearly did is called back pedaling. I can understand what you were talking about, ie TH's dislike or defining a genre as not music, but how can one person's opinion be a bad opinion? Based on what YOU perceive? Your opinion of his opinion relies solely on your personal perception of the matter. It is NOT fact, it is OPINION.

10-13-2014, 10:52 AM	#85 (permalink)
Trollheart Born to be mild Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 404 Not Found Posts: 26,994	My last point on that: disagree with me all you want, say I'm wrong but respect my opinion as I would yours. It's only fair. And don't hurl words like shitty my way, it's just rude and uncalled for. I don't think that's asking too much. __________________ Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018

10-13-2014, 11:01 AM	#87 (permalink)
Frownland SOPHIE FOREVER Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: East of the Southern North American West Posts: 35,541	^this. I tried to encapsulate that by suggesting you refer to it as music you don't like/get/agree with instead of not calling it music. __________________ Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth. d e a f b o x