What is music, what is not?

**Frownland** · 10-12-2014, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

This sounds like noise to me:
Mr. Hinkle's Medical History | Jesus the Carpenter

I can not for the life of me recognize any sort of pattern. It's just a bunch of random sounds (to me). Thanks Frown :P

I can recognize repetition of notes in all of these songs:

It's been a long time since I listened to any of this stuff. I was mixed up in what grindcore is exactly, but hopefully these examples will help you understand the point I was trying to make regardless of genre.

I don't think there needs to be a pattern to recognize as something more than noise. Take Coltrane for example, a lot of his music is ever-changing, maybe a return to a theme, but it's definitely more than noise.

Plus my track you posted is a noise rock track so I'm glad you picked up on that

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by grindy

I listen to lots of music that might sound far more random and noisy than this Jesus The Carpenter track. So that's not the problem, but still I think it's pretty lame and uninteresting.

Ouch. Listening back to it the drums can use a little work (maybe if I used an acoustic kit instead of my keyboard) but I'm happy with how it turned out.

DwnWthVwls · 10-12-2014, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland

I don't think there needs to be a pattern to recognize as something more than noise. Take Coltrane for example, a lot of his music is ever-changing, maybe a return to a theme, but it's definitely more than noise.

Well if it's not too detailed can you help me understand it? I know it's deliberate I just don't understand how it goes together. Don't get me wrong I consider it music, it just confuses the hell out of me.

I agree with there not needing to be a pattern. I love a lot of guitar solo's and those don't usually repeat but they flow in a way that makes sense to me. That track doesn't give me the same kind of feeling.

**Frownland** · 10-12-2014, 03:33 PM

It's more about a frantic exploration of sounds and the element of surprise, with th bass and drums allowing the guitar to do this. The way I look at it, it's a conversation between the instruments and theyre all jumping at the gun for a sort of freak out. It's kind of hard to explain and cacophony is an unwritten consequence of free improvisation. My solo stuff isn't as focused as WISK's work because it's just me and I don't have any other minds to work off of. It's cool if you don't get it, the last thing my music is is accessible.

grindy · 10-12-2014, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland

I don't think there needs to be a pattern to recognize as something more than noise. Take Coltrane for example, a lot of his music is ever-changing, maybe a return to a theme, but it's definitely more than noise.

Plus my track you posted is a noise rock track so I'm glad you picked up on that

.

Ouch. Listening back to it the drums can use a little work (maybe if I used an acoustic kit instead of my keyboard) but I'm happy with how it turned out.

The track as a whole didn't do much for me. I'm sure you'll get over it.

But I also think me not liking it illustrates a point: If you like "experimental" music it doesn't mean you like all of it. Many people seem to think that, especially if it's all a bunch of random, annoying noise to them.

Machine · 10-12-2014, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

Well if it's not too detailed can you help me understand it? I know it's deliberate I just don't understand how it goes together. Don't get me wrong I consider it music, it just confuses the hell out of me.

I agree with there not needing to be a pattern. I love a lot of guitar solo's and those don't usually repeat but they flow in a way that makes sense to me. That track doesn't give me the same kind of feeling.

I believe that it's all subjective really the way we all and what is noise or uncoordination to some might just be a beautiful soundscape to some or a rhythm that ticks with their inner workings.

Looking at grindcore I definitely take away that rhythmic sensation I was talking about where looking at a noise pop song, or a drone I look at how the melody was deconstructed and what was changes due to that.

**Frownland** · 10-12-2014, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grindy

The track as a whole didn't do much for me. I'm sure you'll get over it.

But I also think me not liking it illustrates a point: If you like "experimental" music it doesn't mean you like all of it. Many people seem to think that, especially if it's all a bunch of random, annoying noise to them.

Nah it's cool, you've the right to your opinion and my music isn't for everyone. Maybe this is more up your alley?

grindy · 10-12-2014, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland

Nah it's cool, you've the right to your opinion and my music isn't for everyone. Maybe this is more up your alley?

You knew I'm a fan of Haino and would enjoy something in this vein.

Yeah, I like it. I'll have to check out more of your stuff.

By the way I also enjoyed your cover of Kivah. I've been listening to the Bar Kokhba album from Zorn's 50th Birthday Celebration a lot lately and the version of Kivah there is incredible. I'll have to try to play it on the guitar myself, although I'm sure that it surpasses my humble guitar skills.

**Frownland** · 10-12-2014, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grindy

You knew I'm a fan of Haino and would enjoy something in this vein.

Yeah, I like it. I'll have to check out more of your stuff.

By the way I also enjoyed your cover of Kivah. I've been listening to the Bar Kokhba album from Zorn's 50th Birthday Celebration a lot lately and the version of Kivah there is incredible. I'll have to try to play it on the guitar myself, although I'm sure that it surpasses my humble guitar skills.

Thanks man. Ja Ribot is a ****ing god, hes the biggest influence on my playing aside from Keiji Haino and Derek Bailey. His style is really fresh and that's something I try to capture.

Trollheart · 10-12-2014, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland

Trollheart, you make me sad.

I know.

Quote:

It can be noise but it is also music.

See, those two parts of the sentence are mutually exclusive to me, at least if you insert "just" before noise. I used to think Slayer was just noise, but I've grown to see the melody in their music. I genuinely went in with as open a mind as I could with Cryptopsy, but the moment it began I was all "What the **** is this ****? This ain't music!" I don't consider EVERYTHING to be music. I guess it would be nice if I could, like you, but I can't. If I hear raindrops that's not music. It's a nice sound but it's just noise. Now I could play music against it and the raindrops might I don't know, counterpoint the underlying metaphor of the melody, or something, and make sense. But not on their own. Lots of noises are like this to me. The sound of a car on the road, the dog barking in next door's garden, someone coughing up their guts in the street ... these things are not, to me, music.

Quote:

I'm going to take it a step further by embracing a Cageian perspective. Music can exist without intent as well. Listening to lines bang on a flagpole while construction across the street clangs and roars while grindy belches tree times is music as well because if someone recorded that as a field recording it would qualify as music to most. So I take the argument that it's a live performance of such. I think viewing the world as a musical landscape opens it up as a place rife with beauty and makes for a more enjoyable experience overall.

No it isn't. Not to me. The point you may be missing here (or not, maybe I'm misreading) is that not everyone sees the world as you do, and while you're perfectly entitled to hear music in every single sound you hear, I am just as entitled to say I don't. I don't think you're saying I'm not, but it feels a little preachy, which is I'm sure not how you intend it to come off.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

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As for your second point, I know those words as well but from the grindcore I have listened to I would definitely not be able to make the claims you made to Trollheart. As far as I know everything you play on an instrument is a note, correct? So obviously I would recognize they are playing notes but when the notes are put together it makes very little sense to me. You seem to have a much higher comprehension of it than I do.

Yeah that's pretty much it. I know it is technically music, cos they're playing instruments (I assume) but it is not any music I recognise as such.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

Well, I find it hard to believe that you and Trollheart can't recognize patterns in grindcore or math rock, but nevertheless I guess I have to take your word for it. Or maybe you're just being stubborn because you don't enjoy the music.

Oh crap! He's on to us!

Trollheart · 10-12-2014, 04:31 PM

Can I just also take the time to congratulate Machine? Less than 20 posts and he (or she) has begun a thread that is not only well-thought-out, but has a lot of proper activity and has got us talking seriously about music again. Well done!

10-12-2014, 03:33 PM	#43 (permalink)
Frownland SOPHIE FOREVER Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: East of the Southern North American West Posts: 35,541	It's more about a frantic exploration of sounds and the element of surprise, with th bass and drums allowing the guitar to do this. The way I look at it, it's a conversation between the instruments and theyre all jumping at the gun for a sort of freak out. It's kind of hard to explain and cacophony is an unwritten consequence of free improvisation. My solo stuff isn't as focused as WISK's work because it's just me and I don't have any other minds to work off of. It's cool if you don't get it, the last thing my music is is accessible. __________________ Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth. d e a f b o x

10-12-2014, 04:31 PM	#50 (permalink)
Trollheart Born to be mild Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 404 Not Found Posts: 26,994	Can I just also take the time to congratulate Machine? Less than 20 posts and he (or she) has begun a thread that is not only well-thought-out, but has a lot of proper activity and has got us talking seriously about music again. Well done! __________________ Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018