What is music, what is not?

Trollheart · 10-12-2014, 10:05 AM

For me, personally (and I know many do not agree!) music has to have melody, or at least harmony. I have listened to some grindcore which I would not consider music, would consider noise, and yet you can listen to birds singing and that can be music. But I think to qualify as music the sound needs to have some basic structure, something you can recognise as a pattern, and it should be also something that evokes an emotional response in you, be it good or bad. I mean, I can bang dustbin lids while screaming at the top of my voice and my cat wails at the sound: is that music?

To me, no. It has to sound, I don't know, finished and have a purpose. Naturally, people will come here and say freeform jazz has no pattern, some black metal or EDM or whatever has none, and that's still music. And it is. So my definition does not stand up.

However, to me, I don't consider it music unless I can recognise it as such. Which is why sometimes some random sound (fridge, water in pipes, wind in the trees) can suddenly sound like music, though it doesn't always.

That's my take on it anyway.

**Janszoon** · 10-12-2014, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

For me, personally (and I know many do not agree!) music has to have melody, or at least harmony. I have listened to some grindcore which I would not consider music, would consider noise, and yet you can listen to birds singing and that can be music. But I think to qualify as music the sound needs to have some basic structure, something you can recognise as a pattern, and it should be also something that evokes an emotional response in you, be it good or bad. I mean, I can bang dustbin lids while screaming at the top of my voice and my cat wails at the sound: is that music?

To me, no. It has to sound, I don't know, finished and have a purpose. Naturally, people will come here and say freeform jazz has no pattern, some black metal or EDM or whatever has none, and that's still music. And it is. So my definition does not stand up.

However, to me, I don't consider it music unless I can recognise it as such. Which is why sometimes some random sound (fridge, water in pipes, wind in the trees) can suddenly sound like music, though it doesn't always.

That's my take on it anyway.

I know we've already had this conversation, but I just want to highlight the fact that grindcore does have melody (notes are being played in a deliberate sequence), harmony (it contains notes being played together in the form of chords) and structure (which is quite traditional in the sense that you can actually write it out as sheet music). I find that it does evoke an emotional response in me and it sounds like it does in you as well, though in your case that emotion is repulsion.

grindy · 10-12-2014, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

For me, personally (and I know many do not agree!) music has to have melody, or at least harmony. I have listened to some grindcore which I would not consider music, would consider noise, and yet you can listen to birds singing and that can be music. But I think to qualify as music the sound needs to have some basic structure, something you can recognise as a pattern, and it should be also something that evokes an emotional response in you, be it good or bad. I mean, I can bang dustbin lids while screaming at the top of my voice and my cat wails at the sound: is that music?

To me, no. It has to sound, I don't know, finished and have a purpose. Naturally, people will come here and say freeform jazz has no pattern, some black metal or EDM or whatever has none, and that's still music. And it is. So my definition does not stand up.

However, to me, I don't consider it music unless I can recognise it as such. Which is why sometimes some random sound (fridge, water in pipes, wind in the trees) can suddenly sound like music, though it doesn't always.

That's my take on it anyway.

Why do you tend to call it "not music" instead of "music I don't like" or "music I can't get into"?
Also there is lots of music without harmony, that I think anyone would still consider music. Indian music does not employ harmony, as far as I know.

And give banging dustbin lids while screaming at the top of your voice while your cat wails at the sound a chance. It might be fun and sound cool.

Pet_Sounds · 10-12-2014, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grindy

And give banging dustbin lids while screaming at the top of your voice while your cat wails at the sound a chance. It might be fun and sound cool.

I'm sure Frownland would love it.

Necromancer · 10-12-2014, 11:12 AM

I distinctively remember listening to Kurt Cobain during the 90s and trying to decide what was actual music or just making noise without no musical direction at all.

DwnWthVwls · 10-12-2014, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

I know we've already had this conversation, but I just want to highlight the fact that grindcore does have melody (notes are being played in a deliberate sequence), harmony (it contains notes being played together in the form of chords) and structure (which is quite traditional in the sense that you can actually write it out as sheet music). I find that it does evoke an emotional response in me and it sounds like it does in you as well, though in your case that emotion is repulsion.

I don't know enough about music to understand the points you made so it really does just sound like noise to me. I remember in HS everyone was big into Dillinger Escape Plan and "math" metal. I just don't understand it.

I still call it music though. I just mute it when it gets played in plug.

Machine · 10-12-2014, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grindy

Music is organized sound. Note that randomness might be a form of organisation and silence might be a form of sound. Of course there must be an intention to make music. If I deliberately belch three times in equal intervals then it's not automatically music. Except if I do that with a musical intention. Then it is music. Not necessarily good and interesting music though.

Generally I noticed, that people mostly resort to the "that's not music" argument to denounce music they simply don't like. I think that's a strange way of thinking. You don't have to categorize things to not like them.

I think that's a really great way of putting music and personally is how I see music fitting into the scheme of art, I just wanted to where other people might put it.

grindy · 10-12-2014, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

I don't know enough about music to understand the points you made so it really does just sound like noise to me. I remember in HS everyone was big into Dillinger Escape Plan and "math" metal. I just don't understand it.

I still call it music though. I just mute it when it gets played in plug.

I don't think it's about "understanding", mostly it's about what you are familiar with.
If you played relatively tame rock to somebody one hundred years ago, they might perceive it similarly to how you perceive math metal and such stuff.
Just noise.
Most people have to get into those things gradually, although it all comes down to a question of personal preference in the end.

DwnWthVwls · 10-12-2014, 12:45 PM

I disagree. Your average uneducated music listener can recognize patterns in traditional genres and that is what tends to dictate if they find a song catchy or appealing. If you played the rock you mentioned 100 years ago they might not like it but they would still be able to recognize melody in it. It wouldn't be "just noise".

With math metal/grindcore etc anyone who isn't educated in music won't understand what is going on. They may like the sound of it but they sure as hell are not recognizing the points that Jans made.

Ultimately, the genre just isn't appealing to me. However, if I understood what they were doing I would most likely have a much greater appreciation for it than I currently do.

grindy · 10-12-2014, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

I disagree. Your average uneducated music listener can recognize patterns in traditional genres and that is what tends to dictate if they find a song catchy or appealing. If you played the rock you mentioned 100 years ago they might not like it but they would still be able to recognize melody in it. It wouldn't be "just noise".

With math metal/grindcore etc anyone who isn't educated in music won't understand what is going on. They may like the sound of it but they sure as hell are not recognizing the points that Jans made.

Ultimately, the genre just isn't appealing to me. However, if I understood what they were doing I would most likely have a much greater appreciation for it than I currently do.

I mostly base this on my own experiences. When I first listened to heavy metal (which is quite melodic after all) as a kid I found it was just terrible noise. Sure I was just a child, but I was relatively knowledgeable about music and had experience with rock music. And as far as I can judge and compare that to my first feelings upon listening to extreme metal or some far-out noisy improvisations it was really similar. There is so much structure and melody I hear now in experimental music, which I just didn't hear when I first came across it, because I had no points of reference.

I also don't have much knowledge about musical theory. I do play some instruments a little, but on a very basic and primitive level, just for fun.
But I nonetheless enjoy really complex music, although I would never be able to exactly tell what rhythm it's in or what kind of progression is being played. I do enjoy the complexity, but mostly I just like how it sounds. Although I do think it would add to the pleasure, if I could understand the musical theory behind it.

10-12-2014, 10:05 AM	#11 (permalink)
Trollheart Born to be mild Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 404 Not Found Posts: 26,992	For me, personally (and I know many do not agree!) music has to have melody, or at least harmony. I have listened to some grindcore which I would not consider music, would consider noise, and yet you can listen to birds singing and that can be music. But I think to qualify as music the sound needs to have some basic structure, something you can recognise as a pattern, and it should be also something that evokes an emotional response in you, be it good or bad. I mean, I can bang dustbin lids while screaming at the top of my voice and my cat wails at the sound: is that music? To me, no. It has to sound, I don't know, finished and have a purpose. Naturally, people will come here and say freeform jazz has no pattern, some black metal or EDM or whatever has none, and that's still music. And it is. So my definition does not stand up. However, to me, I don't consider it music unless I can recognise it as such. Which is why sometimes some random sound (fridge, water in pipes, wind in the trees) can suddenly sound like music, though it doesn't always. That's my take on it anyway. __________________ Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018

10-12-2014, 11:12 AM	#15 (permalink)
Necromancer Divination Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,655	I distinctively remember listening to Kurt Cobain during the 90s and trying to decide what was actual music or just making noise without no musical direction at all.