What is music, what is not?

**Frownland** · 11-21-2014, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninetales

Thank you, you rule. I need to write an essay on this next month and am still on the fence. I've always thought it was music, based on a pretty liberal view of "whatever you think is music is music". Don't know if it holds up tho. Could probably write a thousand words either way.

Tl; dr I don't have a god damn clue

What class? I could talk at length about 4'33. One time I had to do a 30 minute speech for a class and about 1/3 of it was about that piece. I'll post my thoughts on it soon. You can probably guess which way I lean.

Chula Vista · 11-21-2014, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland

To open up the discussion again, what do you guys think about 4'33 by John Cage?

Left me hungry.

Pet_Sounds · 11-22-2014, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mondo Bungle

But on the real, I don't consider that one music. Music to me is sound. I find 4'33 to be an artistic statement, allowing you to find and appreciate the music surrounding us, but not music itself, at least in my eyes.

I agree with Mondo here.

Funny enough, my mom wrote an essay about 4'33" back in the day. I'll have to get her opinion.

grindy · 11-22-2014, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland

To open up the discussion again, what do you guys think about 4'33 by John Cage?

Silence is an element of music. I think everybody agrees, that a moment of silence can be quite beneficial for the development of a piece. Think of a pause before all hell breaks loose in some song... That can be quite powerful.
And since silence can be an element of music, then why not stretch it and leave sounds out of it altogether? So, definitely music in my opinion.
After all, a lot of lowercase or onkyo-kei are mostly silence, so why draw a line there?
Sure, 4'33 is a concept piece, nobody sits down to listen to it at home. (Although one could say we listen to it most of the time.) But still music.
Once again, whether it's good music or not, whether it's clever or stupid and lazy, is another thing altogether.

Machine · 11-22-2014, 10:19 AM

I just listened to the piece of music for the first time and to be honest I may have had a weird reaction that it was quite resounding to hear. To me the audience shuffling and uninformed anticipation in line with chatter in between parts was the music. The music by not being played created an ambiance that I'll never really forget and for whatever reason kept me on the edge of my seat. Well that was my reaction anyway to me it does undoubtedly scream music to me, but also something different. And as grindy said lowercase music can be at time composed of mainly silence.

grindy · 11-22-2014, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Machine

I just listened to the piece of music for the first time and to be honest I may have had a weird reaction that it was quite resounding to hear. To me the audience shuffling and uninformed anticipation in line with chatter in between parts was the music. The music by not being played created an ambiance that I'll never really forget and for whatever reason kept me on the edge of my seat. Well that was my reaction anyway to me it does undoubtedly scream music to me, but also something different. And as grindy said lowercase music can be at time composed of mainly silence.

So much for nobody actually sitting down at home to listen to it.

But yeah, it's one of the questions the piece poses. Is the piece the actual silence or the accidental sounds its silence frames?

Machine · 11-22-2014, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grindy

So much for nobody actually sitting down at home to listen to it.

But yeah, it's one of the questions the piece poses. Is the piece the actual silence or the accidental sounds its silence frames?

Ha yeah I'd be that person believe me. I'm the guy who will chill out to To Be Kind by Swans.

I believe silence poses this question, for me it's the latter because this very human filling in of sound can be just as beautiful and moving as would an awesome Elliott Smith or Wilco song would have me, but met in a different frame of mind.

grindy · 11-22-2014, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Machine

Ha yeah I'd be that person believe me. I'm the guy who will chill out to To Be Kind by Swans.

I believe silence poses this question, for me it's the latter because this very human filling in of sound can be just as beautiful and moving as would an awesome Elliott Smith or Wilco song would have me, but met in a different frame of mind.

Pff. I chill out to Merzbow. (It's a competition, right?)

Totally agree with you. Human sounds can have something really moving. For example I really enjoy the sound of Fred Frith breathing in "White" (the first piece from "Clearing"), it really compliments the beautiful guitar playing.
I'm sure there are tons of other examples, none come to mind at the moment though.

Machine · 11-22-2014, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grindy

Pff. I chill out to Merzbow. (It's a competition, right?)

Totally agree with you. Human sounds can have something really moving. For example I really enjoy the sound of Fred Frith breathing in "White" (the first piece from "Clearing"), it really compliments the beautiful guitar playing.
I'm sure there are tons of other examples, none come to mind at the moment though.

Of course it's competition

For example to bring Swans up again Gira's lead vocal on Mother Of The Earth is him breathing heavily over a hard noisy industrial groove. It ends up with a few seconds of nothing but his panting before moving into the next "movement of the song".

Black Francis · 11-22-2014, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grindy

Silence is an element of music. I think everybody agrees, that a moment of silence can be quite beneficial for the development of a piece. Think of a pause before all hell breaks loose in some song... That can be quite powerful.
And since silence can be an element of music, then why not stretch it and leave sounds out of it altogether? So, definitely music in my opinion.
After all, a lot of lowercase or onkyo-kei are mostly silence, so why draw a line there?
Sure, 4'33 is a concept piece, nobody sits down to listen to it at home. (Although one could say we listen to it most of the time.) But still music.
Once again, whether it's good music or not, whether it's clever or stupid and lazy, is another thing altogether.

don't mean to belittle your post but what you said reminded me of this clip

ive never heard that 4'33 song you guys kept talking about but i usually don't like silence in songs.

11-22-2014, 10:19 AM	#165 (permalink)
Machine moon lake inc. Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Detroit Posts: 2,125	I just listened to the piece of music for the first time and to be honest I may have had a weird reaction that it was quite resounding to hear. To me the audience shuffling and uninformed anticipation in line with chatter in between parts was the music. The music by not being played created an ambiance that I'll never really forget and for whatever reason kept me on the edge of my seat. Well that was my reaction anyway to me it does undoubtedly scream music to me, but also something different. And as grindy said lowercase music can be at time composed of mainly silence. __________________ boost my ego listen to me stroke my delay pedal ever wanted to hear death grips songs... but they're acoustic? me neither.