What is music, what is not?

Plankton · 10-13-2014, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

I like the Douglas Adams quote a lot btw, and completely agree with it.

I think it's a shitty quote in the context it was given, but certainly an accurate one. Using a quote from some famous renowned person to counterpoint an argument is the equivalent of throwing a brick at someones head after they beat you up and start walking way.

DwnWthVwls · 10-13-2014, 12:47 PM

So glad the main point of my post got ignored..

maybe I should edit out the quote so people actually discuss the question I posed which actually supports TH even though I disagree with his opinion.

Sometimes it's fun to play devil's advocate.

grindy · 10-13-2014, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plankton

Now I finally got the reference in Simpsons.

Trollheart · 10-13-2014, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plankton

Define "dissing". Calling someones opinion '****ty' would be the equivalent of being dissed around where I come from, and saying you're not 'dissing' someone when you clearly did is called back pedaling. I can understand what you were talking about, ie TH's dislike or defining a genre as not music, but how can one person's opinion be a bad opinion? Based on what YOU perceive? Your opinion of his opinion relies solely on your personal perception of the matter. It is NOT fact, it is OPINION.

What I was saying. I'm not saying you should accept that my opinion is right, any more than I accept yours, but you have to accept it as an opinion. It is not ****ty just because you say it is --- and perhaps Frown agrees, though maybe I'm being too harsh there. It's a bit disingenuous to use the sweaters analogy: obviously, these are physical items and their existence and categorisation as what they are can no more be denied than you can deny the sky is, you know, way up there or that the moon shines at night. But music is not a physical thing. You can't, to quote Johnny Cash, see it with your eyes (and I don't mean musical notation) or hold it in your hands: you can see/hold the physical manifestations of it (songs, tunes, guitars, piano etc) but not music as a physical entity.

I'm not denying the presence of music, and I'm not saying grindcore is not music. The point you seem to be gleefully ignoring is that I'm saying I don't see it as music. It does not qualify as music to me. If I say baseball's a stupid sport, I don't see it as sport at all, I'm not denying that it IS a sport, just that it doesn't qualify or satisfy the admittedly somewhat arbitrary criteria I have set for myself to recognise it as such. It would be just as silly for you to say "but baseball is a sport. You can't deny that" if I were to say "I don't see baseball as a sport" as it is for you to be picking apart my opinion as if it has no merit or value, just because it happens not to coincide with yours.

Whether you like it or not, my opinion is mine and once again I say you have no call to be calling it ****ty, and then try to pretend you were not dissing it, which as Plankton says you clearly were. At least have the courage of your convictions and admit that was what you were doing. I have to say, I'm losing more respect for you with every post you make on this. You really should just say sorry and leave it at that; I would.

We can agree to disagree, but rudeness is rudeness and is something I will not tolerate or accept, from anyone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninetales

“All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.”

- Douglas Adams

Contextualise please. Adams was a satirist, and this could just as easily be a piece of misdirection, not meant literally. Even if it is, so what? What does that prove? You may as well say "All men are created equal, but some are created more equal than others".

As in all things, one man or woman's opinion does not necessarily make that statement any more true or false, or valid.

Plankton · 10-13-2014, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninetales

And I think arbitrarily calling Grindcore not music is rude and condescending.

Well, there's your opinion then.

Based on what? The fact that you need to hang on to your own personal belief that what you define as music must be defended and avenged, otherwise your way of thinking is flawed, thereby lowering your self worth?

I can see that.

Trollheart · 10-13-2014, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninetales

And I think arbitrarily calling Grindcore not music is rude and condescending.

To me, to me. Not to everyone. I'm not saying nobody should listen to grindcore, it's not music. I'm saying that I, personally, do not consider it music. I don't expect or ask for my belief to be supported by anyone else, but I do expect to be able to hold it. Are we suddenly in a fascist dictatorship where I'm not allowed express my opinion?

And ftr I would never call anyone's opinion ****ty. It's the worst kind of rudeness in my opinion. Also, no, I took your other points but I wanted to make it clear I was very upset with your offhand comment directed at me, and then defended by you, to a degree.

I also think we've derailed the thread long enough, so if you don't see anything wrong with what you've said I can't change your mind. Just leave me to have and express my opinions without calling me/them names and we'll be fine.

DwnWthVwls · 10-13-2014, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

If I say baseball's a stupid sport, I don't see it as sport at all, I'm not denying that it IS a sport, just that it doesn't qualify or satisfy the admittedly somewhat arbitrary criteria I have set for myself to recognise it as such. It would be just as silly for you to say "but baseball is a sport. You can't deny that" if I were to say "I don't see baseball as a sport" as it is for you to be picking apart my opinion as if it has no merit or value, just because it happens not to coincide with yours.

I have a problem with this analogy/argument. Your opinion that it is not a sport IS denial of it being a sport. You can't have it both ways, they are direct contradictions. Also, it is a sport by definition so just because you decide to claim you have an opinion doesn't mean it can't be wrong just because you're claiming it to be an opinion. I've had this discussion with Soulflower before when we were butting heads.

The problem with music is that there is no clear cut definition as you can witness by the entire discussion leading up to this point.

Plankton · 10-13-2014, 01:06 PM

Back on track then... I'll reiterate:

Quote:

Music is the actualization of the possibility of any sound whatever to present to some human being a meaning which he experiences with his body—that is to say, with his mind, his feelings, his senses, his will, and his metabolism. It is therefore a certain reciprocal relation established between a person, his behavior, and a sounding object.

...and I'm done.

~~Soulflower~~ · 10-13-2014, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

I have a problem with this analogy/argument. Your opinion that it is not a sport IS denial of it being a sport. You can't have it both ways, they are direct contradictions. Also, it is a sport by definition so just because you decide to claim you have an opinion doesn't mean it can't be wrong just because you're claiming it to be an opinion. I've had this discussion with Soulflower before when we were butting heads.

The problem with music is that there is no clear cut definition as you can witness by the entire discussion leading up to this point.

I see your point but it is still HIS opinion. You don't have to agree with it.

It might be close minded to you but that is still his opinion which he is still technically entitled too.

**Janszoon** · 10-13-2014, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

I'm not denying the presence of music, and I'm not saying grindcore is not music. The point you seem to be gleefully ignoring is that I'm saying I don't see it as music. It does not qualify as music to me. If I say baseball's a stupid sport, I don't see it as sport at all, I'm not denying that it IS a sport, just that it doesn't qualify or satisfy the admittedly somewhat arbitrary criteria I have set for myself to recognise it as such. It would be just as silly for you to say "but baseball is a sport. You can't deny that" if I were to say "I don't see baseball as a sport" as it is for you to be picking apart my opinion as if it has no merit or value, just because it happens not to coincide with yours.

See, this is what confuses me. Why would you say you don't see baseball as a sport when you do acknowledge that it is in fact a sport? I mean, believe me, I think baseball is one of the most boring things on earth so I think you and I share similar feelings about it, but nevertheless it clearly contains all the attributes that constitute a sport. So why would you say it isn't one as some sort of value judgement? Are you saying that intellectually you recognize that baseball is a sport and grindcore is music, but they just don't hit you that way on a gut level?

Also, just to be clear here, because I've recently learned that there's a sensitive soul in Michigan who thinks I'm insulted by music disagreements: I enjoy having these kind of debates and discussions with you, Trollheart, and am not insulted or irritated or anything other than pleased to engage in them. You're one of my favorite people to talk to on MB in part because we tend to approach a given musical thing from different angles. I respect your opinions and your right to have them but I do very much enjoy debating them with you.