Do you subscribe to the "grower" school of thought?
 

I don't mean are you into gardening! A lot of people, particularly here, seem to be happy to listen to an album multiple times before they decide if they like it. Such an album is referred here to as a "grower", presumably because it eventually grows on you. But I've more music backed up on my computer than I could ever realistically listen to in a lifetime (which doesn't stop me downloading more nearly every day!) and don't have time to let albums grow on me. Personally, if I don't hear at least some promise in an album first time out I'll usually drop it. Whether or not my opinion would change after several spins is not something I have the time or patience for: albums have one chance to impress me and that's it.

So how do you feel? If you're a believer in the grower theory, how long does it take or how many spins before an album is or isn't pronounced worthy by you? And is this a constant thing, spinning back to back or every day say, or do you put it away, come back to it, put it away, come back to it and so on?

Just interested. How do yaz all feel about this?

I don't have any hard and fast rules. Sometimes I listen to an album, don't like it and never end up listening to it again, sometimes I give it additional chances and never enjoy it, and sometimes after additional listens I end up loving it. It just depends. There are also some artists who I know tend to make albums that take me more than one listen to get into (i.e. Tom Waits) so I always give them multiple listens before passing judgement.

I do believe in it because its happened to me. Having said that, something tends to get me to give a bad album more spins than "hope" alone.

What happens most often is that I'll like a few songs and grow into the album, rather than me liking nothing and grow into it completely. The Return on Investment with a lot of albums isn't statistically in my favor. So its rare that I go from complete hate to full passion.

I grew on Meat is Murder. It is now my favourite Smiths album. I tend to give albums new chances if I think I might grow on them, but if I think they're absolutely terrible, I'll just drop it.

I usually don't return to an album after disliking it on my first try. However, I won't delete it from my iTunes library because one day when I'm listening to it on shuffle, a track from the album will come up and I'll like it because I'm coming at it from a new perspective more or less. That's how I grew to love Trout Mask Replica. Sometimes hype will push me to revisit an album though.

Some of my all-time favourite albums have been "growers", so yes, I´m a believer, but rather like TH, with the quantity of music that´s available now, I´m not quite so patient about letting new albums grow on me.

I guess I have a kind of checklist in my head the first time I hear an album: How noisy is it? How interesting are the lyrics? Is there some instrumental excitement there? That´s why I might replay some jazz album, for instance, to give it a chance to sink in. Would I give a Justin Bieber album a second chance? Probably not.

Mentioning a pop star makes me think of the converse of TH´s question: do you distrust an album if you instantly like it ? That´s happened to me a few times; an album seems great first off but about three plays later it sounds like a shallow piece of garbage!

I don't think this is a situation where you can subscribe to a belief. I think it is a fact that some music will grow on you the more you listen to it.

If I found that album growing on me, I´d probably listen to these guys for a while...

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Yeah, but was it magic? ;)

I know what you're saying and that is a fact: usually if you're exposed to music for long enough you'll end up liking it, or, more likely, just getting used to it. It's what has us humming the most godawful pop tunes despite our better judgement if we've heard them enough ("Baby I'm toxic!"....) but the point is do you put yourself deliberately in a situation where, having listened to an album and not liked it or been blown away by it, you think I'll give that a few more goes, or do you say no, didn't like it, on to the next one, and never go back to it? That's a conscious decision I feel we all either make or don't make.

Yeah I should have expanded onto that point. There are albums that I disregard and others I give a few more tries, but the reasons why I gave up or decided to give it another shot depends on the album itself, not a general rule.

If I clearly just don't like it, and there's nothing about the album that makes me think "Oh, but there's a concept...", "Maybe I wasn't focussing enough" or "The sound is quite out there, maybe I just need to get used to it" then I just move on.

99% of the time my mind is made up almost the instant I hear something, and my opinion will be set from that moment

However there have been a few times where an album I was initially disappointed with or indifferent to, has become a favourite on repeated listenings, such as:

Beck - Mutations. I think I was expecting more wacky, hip-hoppy beck after Odelay, and the downtempo country vibe felt like slightly monotonous and plodding. I now think this is his masterpiece! (And yet his next album Sea Change is very similar in style to Mutations, but somehow despite repeated attempts I've never enjoyed listening to it)

Pavement - Brighten The Corners. After the single Stereo, I was expecting a much more eccentric, random kind of album. At first the rest of the songs sounded a bit bland and samey. After hearing it a few more times the songs suddenly made sense and about 1000 listens later I now think it's easily Pavement's best album.

What makes an album a grower for me has more often to do with the mood I'm in and less to do with the music. However, there is just as often music than demands more attention than usual: I don't think these fit into grower category as I'm sure I like the albums it's just that I'm not sure how much.

For me I like to listen to an album normally then also while lookin at the lyrics but then also months later I usualky relisten. Time just changes things sometimes yrs go by before I run across an album and listen to it again. Top 40 songs grow on me with time n maybe that's their plan. If ya hear it enough u will hust grow to like it. Kanye is especially one of those artists for me

There has to be some impetus to revisit an album in the first place. Unless I absolutely despise the sound, or I know that the style of music doesn't align with my tastes, I'll usually at least give the first 3-4 tracks a go and decide whether or not I'll come back to it. I think some albums have a degree of depth and complexity that isn't appreciable on first listen, sometimes other albums require more active, attentive listening, which at the time may not be possible, and sometimes, like crazed mentioned, my mood is just not right for that style of music. Some albums just simply do become better through familiarity though.

Yeah, but then most of my favorite albums have been growers. I think the nature of growers is that they're harder to get into initially (usually for me this means there's something challenging or unfamiliar about the music/style), but once you get into them, they stick around for longer.

Yup, if I find myself immediately liking a song I'm wary. Mostly because those songs don't really have much to offer on repeated listens, so they sound good at first, but get old really quick.

To the second part I would have to say no. There have of course been times when on first listen I've been knocked out by an album but then going back to it somehow it's not as good --- I think I mentioned this in my "Fortress of Prog" thread with respect to Delusion Squared --- but generally if I really like an album first time I think it's great that I do, and I know I'll be listening to it again and again. This is how I felt with Ten, Mostly Autumn, Kamelot and Arena. No, you don't know any of them... :rolleyes:

I don't think there's any album or song I loved immediately that later lost its sparkle for me. But maybe that's just because I'm an old codger (seriously: is that word really a shortened version of "coffin dodger"?) and set in my ways.

Yeah that doesn't happen with me at all. When I find a song I really like. I will replay it and burn through it until I am sick of it but it doesn't mean I don't like it anymore or have grown wary. I just reach a point where I am satisfied with the song and no longer feel the need to constantly repeat it.

As for the overall topic of growers, I don't think there are albums that grow on me. If I don't like an album for a specific reason then I won't try to torture myself by replaying it until I break down and finally start liking it. That's exactly what it sounds like you guys are doing.

If I don't like the way that an album starts out I will stick it out and make sure that I listen to the whole think because I tend to end up finding tracks that are gems hiding in the rough later on or I find something about a track that sounds pleasing to my ears.

There are albums that Ill hear once (or not even get through it once) and i will know that its unlikely ill ever listen to it again. But there are albums that ill dislike, but there is something that will make me come back to it later (usually months or years). I remember hating Godspeed the first few times, but something kept me coming back. And then eventually it hit me. Hard. And now i love em.

Im still trying to like Dummy. Its an album Ive always thought id really like but for whatever reason i dont. But it has that intangible and undefinable *quality* that keeps me coming back to it every once and a while. One day..

And then there are albums that ill like originally but theyll become more stale as time goes by. I will rarely hate something i used to like but might become indifferent to the point where i wont listen to it anymore. Focus by Cynic is one of those for me although maybe itll come back to me if i hold off listening to it for a long while.

Music is a very crazy thing eh

Yeah, I told you about that is how I got into early Genesis. I didn't know they were "growers." Once I got to understand the albums better music-wise I thought they were great. I think that only happens with bands I am already into, because I don't like what I hear right off I won't give it repeat tries. Yes the first two and Relayer had grow on me, Tales has yet to grow, but Paul played part of it in plug and I liked what I heard. Some albums grow faster than others, some burn out, and other I think are epic right off the bat.

its like when girls ask and i say that im a grower not a shower. and then i try showin them my cd collection and itunes library and they just wanna take off my pants, its whatevs

you don't shower? I am surprise girls even talk to you.

Tales from Topographic Oceans is a fine example of an album that I didn't really get at first, but I knew that there was something really great and attention demanding so I gave it a few spins and really attentively immersed myself in it, and while I wont say it's one of my favorite albums, my opinion of it improved drastically from the first initial listen. Relayer to a lesser extent was the same way.

I don't think anyone in this thread is talking about "torturing" themselves with music they hate. More like being open to giving something more than one chance.

Pretty much my way of looking at it too. I know some people say "Oh you have to hear this album!" and I might but then not like it; it's unlikely though that I'd then keep trying to like it, saying "What am I missing?" It just may not be for me. It's like someone saying (and I hate this) you'll love a certain food. How do they know? You might hate it. The phrase "You're gonna love it!" is a really annoying thing for anyone to say to me. But back OT, look at Daft Punk: I tried it not because everyone else said it was great (well, partly) but because I heard a snippet on TV and liked it. Had I though run the album and hated it that would have been it: I wouldn't have kept trying. Once I know I'm not into an album I usually leave it. What's the point of trying to force yourself to like it? It's like (going back to the food/drink example) "an acquired taste". Huh? You either like something or you don't: you shouldn't have to acquire the taste for it...

Yeah well for me that would be different because I was into Genesis from day one, but taking an example from that, their worst album imo, "Abacab". I did try to like it but I never will. It's never going to grow on me. Some tracks I like but it will always be my least favourite of those and nobody and no amount of listens is going to convince me otherwise.
Yeah that's probably overstated but you know what he means: why push yourself to like an album you don't believe you ever will? I tried several times to get into "Tarkus" and I just hated it. I don't care how many others think it's a classic. I don't like it and it will never appeal to me.

Are we the same person?! Seriously, I had the exact same thing happen with G!YBE. Didn't get the fuss at first, now I love them. And the same way about Dummy. Considering the type of music I usually like, I should totally love Dummy, and it seems like a low of people really love that album, but I just... don't. I've listened to it a few times, and it's not that I disliked it or anything, it was just... meh. But then there's that quality that it has that makes me WANT to really love it.

EDIT: just realized you probably meant Godspeed the metal band, not Godspeed You! Black Emperor. Oh well, I'm leaving it because G!YBE is relevant to the discussion.

Someday I will get around to it.

Yeah well for me that would be different because I loved the album Abacab. The least favorite album was We Can't Dance even allmusic gave it a lower rating than Abacab. Every time I see you complain about the album I give it another listen, trying to find something wrong with it and I always find it an incredible album. Phil's lyrics were a bit loopy. However I thought Tony Banks was at his peak he was/is amazing. Like it or not you have to admit Like It Or Not is one of their best tracks ever.

Not sure if you meant that: Like it or not said twice! :laughing: Actually I do like that track, but one of their best ever? Pfah! "One for the vine", "White mountain", even "Burning rope" piss all over it. Abacab was Genesis' attempt to go all pop and it failed, but you're entitled to your opinion of course. I like WCD, but can pick out maybe three, possibly four tracks on Abacab that I like or can stand. I mean: "Another record?" The godawful "Whodunnit?" Please! :rolleyes:

Incidentally, ya seen my review of "Calling all stations" today? Interested in your comments...

I don't see giving something a second chance as pushing myself to like it. I just see it as recognition of the fact that an album clicking with me often depends on my mood or the circumstances I listen to it under, and that many albums require more than a casual listen to be fully appreciated.

I don't think it has anything to do with being open. Also I guess that's your experience with first listens to albums that you just do it casually but when I listen to an album the first time through I give it my full attention to pick apart the things that I do/don't like about it.

Which I guess is only something that I do and not anyone else in this thread.
Maybe Trollheart does as well.

Do you listen to different music depending on mood? It's not about listening to it "casually" but sometimes certain pieces click when im in a different state of mind

Mood doesn't come into play with first listens though. If it is something that I'm hearing for the first time and it's new to me so I just take it in regardless of my mood.

Yeah, music can definitely grow on you, but it usually doesn't for me. Usually how music grows on me is I listened to one song and assumed the artist sucked, and then I listened to a whole album and it wasn't really that bad.

How would first listens be any different? If its a first listen of black metal and youre not in the mood for it itll skew your initial views

Sure it does. If you view repeat listens to an album that didn't immediately click with you as "torture", then clearly you're not open to repeat listens.

My experience is that nothing is set in stone. How closely I listen can vary. My mood can vary. Circumstances beyond my control can vary. Sometimes it's a matter of where I was in life when I heard something. There are albums that didn't click with when I first heard them but then years later, when I was in a different place in life, I rediscovered them and ended up loving them.

First listens are different with me because I let myself be open to what it is I'm hearing regardless of my mood. My mood doesn't skew first listens. It may for you and others but it doesn't work that way with me.


Why do you need to put yourself through repeated listens of something that you don't specifically click with in the first place I don't get it.

You don't "need" to do anything, but I think being open to the idea that your opinions and perceptions can change is a good thing. If I just chucked everything that didn't click with me right away I'd have missed out on a hell of a lot of good music.

I also think you might have a mistaken impression of what I'm talking about here. You keep referring to giving an album a second chance as "torture" or something you "put yourself through" as if it's some kind of difficult regimen one makes a serious commitment to. All I'm talking about here is skimming through my library looking for something to listen to and thinking, "Hmm, I forgot about this album I downloaded a couple weeks ago, maybe I'll give it another spin. I think I'm more in the mood for it today."

That is a wrong assessment of the album, Trollheart, maybe one of these days I should do a review of it.

uugghh I hope Briks rips this idea of yours off as well. Though he hasn't the years behind him to see a bunch of his favorite bands crash and burn in their ultimate demise.

I think I do. I almost never (unless I get distracted by burning toast or a knock at the door or aliens invading --- or aliens knocking at the doorto tell me my toast is burning!) listen to an album with half an ear. Especially if it's the first time, I want to know if it's something I'm going to like, so whether or not I'm reviewing it or filing it away for later review, I listen as fully as I can. I want to know like DJ what's good about it, what if anything is great about it and what if anything is bad about it. If it's a band/artiste I've never heard of and I like it I'll then probably go looking for more by them.

No. Mood has nothing to do with me. If I'm depressed I can usually listen to a slow instrumental but could as easily listen to Iron Maiden or Tom Waits. It's seldom if at all that I fit music to my mood, though of course particular albums/tracks may AFFECT my mood, ie sad songs etc.
That's true as well, with the oft-quoted-by-me example of Phil Collins' "Face value". But what I think we're saying here is that if you listen to a NEW album (to you) first time and HATE it --- I mean don't see anything good in it at all --- then why push yourself to like it? I know this is not what you're saying but the overall consensus often seems to be "you'll like it if you spin it a few more times." That may be true, but I'd rather go with my formulated opinion made by listening to the album once than try to keep listening to it to make myself eventually like it.

Nor me. It's the old "acquired taste" thing I was talking about...
You should do that. However remember it is MY assessment of the album, and so is not "wrong", just different to how you feel.

He has been warned legally. ;) Also, "Swan song" is not just about bands crashing and burning. a-ha went out on a high, so did Lizzy. It's about how they prepare their final album and what it says about the band and the time they've been together. I assume you didn't agree with that review either?

There are not only 'growers' but 'shrinkers' too. I absolutely loved Urban Hymns by the Verve when I bought it and now I just cannot be bothered listening to it.

I think sometimes you don't bother to let an album grow on you others you over listen to at the time and end up falling out of love with the album.

I guess it's like a nice meal, eat it way to often and the day comes you decided that's it and your mind just falls off it.

On the other hand plenty of food I've tasted and thought not for me only to find out over time actually I quite like it.